I'm with you on that definition, I completely agree that security should be
part of the infrastructure (almost ether like) between services as much as
it is part of a single service.

Steve


On 01 Apr 2007 04:37:09 -0700, Michael Poulin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  I share your sarcasm, Steve. Aspects embedding is an OO approach, not SO
one.

However, here is, at least, one way of setting a 'liability insurance' on
the 3rd party services that have different or none security embedded - a
policy/security bridge. It is an intermediary, which performs resolution
between different security  algorithms and/or performs security controls if
a service does not have any. Certainly, a bridge cannot cover the 'leg'
between its end-point and  related consumer or receiver end-pint for such
unsecured service but it is better than nothing.
Since the bridge acts for the SOA, it can be considered as a SOA
infrastructure, i.e. as a SOA capability related to security.

- Michael


*Steve Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote:

 How would you see security being done between various 3rd party services?


On 30 Mar 2007 08:34:25 -0700, Bill Barr < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>    Security is best left as an aspect embedded into the design of any
> specific SOA. Security is really a thought process, not a capability.
>
> --
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* [email protected] [mailto:service-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2007 1:14 AM
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* Re: [service-orientated-architecture] ESB Standard Definition
> - SOA capabilities and its categorization
>
>  I'd be a bit worried if security wasn't considered to be an SOA
> capability, trust, privacy, authentication etc are all key business concepts
> that need to be handled within a delivered SOA.
>
>
> On 30 Mar 2007 00:59:23 -0700, Jerry Zhu < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >   I agree with policy enforcement being mediation
> > concept to be a category.
> >
> > So network & security is left out and is considered as
> > non SOA capablity
> >
> > The issue is Service Registry (SR). I think that SR is
> > used by all Service Platforms, Service Mediation, and
> > Service Managmeent, not just Service management. So SR
> > is considered as common factor of all three categories
> > and extracted out and defined as a separate capablity
> > category.
> >
> > Also SR is used by business services in implementing
> > business logic in either early or late binding. The
> > fact that SR has its owns APIs and standards makes it
> > well into a category. Also we can buy service
> > registry as a standalone product in the market. So it
> > is a good separation of concerns to extract registry
> > out as a category. Metadata will be stored in
> > Repostory.
> >
> > So four SOA capability categories?
> >
> > Service Platforms
> > Service Mediation
> > Service Management
> > Service Registry/Repository
> >
> > Ideas from anyone? If no objections we agree that
> > this is the SOA capability categorization. Once we
> > have this done we can insert capability items in the
> > categories.
> >
> >
> > --- Todd Biske <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <todd.biske%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > I normally break things down into:
> > >
> > > Service Platforms
> > > Service Mediation
> > > Service Management
> > >
> > > Looks very similar to Anne's model, doesn't it... I
> > > prefer to
> > > differentiate between policy enforcement, which I
> > > view as a mediation
> > > concept, from service management, which includes
> > > both policy
> > > management, as well as service lifecycle management
> > > (which is where
> > > the passive monitoring, metric analytics, etc.)
> > > comes into play.
> > > Service Registry/Repository is the tricky one to
> > > place in all of
> > > this. I'm still on the fence as to whether it is
> > > simply the
> > > information store that backs service management, or
> > > if all the of
> > > above 3 sit on top of a service metadata layer.
> > >
> > > -tb
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 28, 2007, at 2:15 PM, Jerry Zhu wrote:
> > >
> > > > I like the idea do understand the problem before a
> > > > solution. The problem is to determine the SOA
> > > > capabilities needed. The solution is the products
> > > mix
> > > > that covers maximally the capabilities with lowest
> > > > cost. The SOA capabilities are to be configured
> > > not to be coded when searching for SOA middle ware
> > > > products(infrastructure components? ).
> > > >
> > > > The difficulty is that do we have a good
> > > > classification and its comprehensive list of these
> > > SOA capabilities - capabilities that are unique to
> > > SOA? Load ballancing and firewall, for example
> > albeit important to be considered, are capablities
> > > outside of SOA.
> > > >
> > > > Anne classified four types of SOA capabilities:
> > > >
> > > > Service platforms: build, run (composite)
> > > services,lagecy systems encapsulation etc.
> > > >
> > > > Service mediation: Anne mainly mentioned policy
> > > > enforcement here
> > > >
> > > > Service management: visibility to the environment,
> > > > monitor trafic/activities, detect anormally and
> > > take actions etc.
> > > >
> > > > Regiestry: enable information exchange among
> > > services and infrastructure components.
> > > >
> > > > To me, service management includes service
> > > mediation. Intercept messages and enforce policies
> > is detecting and taking actions.
> > > >
> > > > Todd added network & security (environment to use
> > > one word) SOA capablity category.
> > > >
> > > > To help with understanding the problem before a
> > > > solution, can we have some concensus here the SOA
> > > > capability categories and capbilities in each?
> > > >
> > > > I see four:
> > > >
> > > > Service platform
> > > > Service management
> > > > Service network/security
> > > > Service Registry
> > > >
> > > > Once we agree the categories, we can list
> > > individual capabilities under each category.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Jerry
> > > >
> > > > --- Todd Biske <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <todd.biske%40gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What customers should be saying is, "I need these
> > > > capabilities, and I want this group to be
> > > >> responsible for them." The latter is key,
> > > because
> > > >> it helps differentiate between activities that
> > > are
> > > > may still be considered programming efforts, such
> > > as
> > > >> orchestration/choreography, from those
> > > >> that are configuration efforts, such as routing.
> > > >> Every organization will have a different set of
> > > > capabilities that are important, and different
> > > > operational models. Take that information
> > > >> and now go talk to your vendors to decide whether
> > > > you need an application server, a message bus, an
> > > EAI
> > > > tool, an ESB, a WSM product, a network appliance,
> > > >> pixie dust, a roving band of trolls, or whatever
> > > it
> > > >> takes. Unfortunately, that doesn't bode well for
> > > > vendor marketing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > > ______________
> > > > The fish are biting.
> > > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search
> > > Marketing.
> > > >
> > >
> > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Don't pick lemons.
> > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
> >
>
>

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