BRILLIANT answer michael, i second this one.
Where is the *MYSTERY* man now??
Cheers
Srini
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Newcomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 4:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Stability of Java
Howard,
Your "issues":
1. "know one knows how to use it"
- Java is a full blown object oriented programming language. You can't
"pick it up in 21 days". The misunderstanding comes from a lack of
education/understanding of the language. You need an understanding of
threads, sockets, exceptions, etc. to understand the language. Your average
web developer who has done wonders with HTML, shockwave, or other web-tools
will not easily be able to grasp Java unless they've done previous
development with a real programming language. I'll bet that a majority of
the posters here are web-developers trying to learn how to program in Java,
and no offense to them, but it won't be an easy process unless you
understand what Java is and how it works.
2. "The lack of professional documentation should send a strong message to
the programming community"
- Ever visited www.javasoft.com? There are more tutorials, articles,
examples than you can shake your fist at! Every class is documented with
javadoc (which you can view with any web browser) and it even comes with the
source code!
3. "Error messages come up and there is no way in this world to find out
what they mean"
- Every Throwable comes with a method "printStackTrace()". Yes! You can
get the stack without going through a debugger! Then, look at the name of
the exception (e.g. FileNotFoundException) and look it up in the
documentation. If that is not good enough, go to the documentation for the
method that threw it, and most likely, it will say why it was thrown!
4. "Isn't Java supposed to be OS independent? Why does code work on one
machine and not another?
- Java is OS independent. It is up to the individual Virtual Machine
developers to ensure that they conform to the Java spec. Java represents
the common abstract concepts that *are* platform independent (sockets,
threads, etc.).
5. "Why are there so many different development tools that are supposed to
do the same thing?"
- Let me ask you this, do you like choices when you shop? As a developer,
I like the idea of being able to choose which servlet engine I use. It also
allows for competition between servlet engine vendors. If JRun has serious
performance or security issues, I can switch over to Apache and my servlets
still work!
6. "We have very talented programmers on staff where I work and we cannot
get any consistency out of Java."
- What the hell are your "talented" programmers doing? I've used Java for
over 2 years and consistency has never been a problem. A consistency issues
sounds like you are trying to use threads in some manner and have not
learned the fundamentals about race conditions and other thread-related
issues.
7. "There are too many variables involved from machine to machine to allow
Java to run consistently."
- Wrong. There are too many variables to have one Virtual Machine run on
different platforms, but Java just defines those high level concepts that
allow several different Virtual Machines to run the same Java code and
produce the same results.
8. "PEOPLE, HEAR THIS ... no one will ever have success making a car that
can accept parts from other cars ... PERIOD"
- I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you are implying that
developers don't want the ability to write network code and have it used in
programs running on all kinds of different platforms, you have not had to do
that before and therefore can't appreciate the problem.
9. summed up: I couldn't get my servlet to work
- You need to ask your servlet engine's vendor what the problem is.
10. "How many millions of man-hours are going to be wasted on Java before IS
managers realize it doesn't work?"
- Java doesn't work? This statement is absolutely ludicrous. Did you not
compile and run the HelloWorld class?
11. "We need to get back to the business of client server programming and
trash this cancer of a tool."
- OH MY GOD. This is what Java is all about! Connecting applications in
Java takes about two seconds. You prove that have no idea what you are
talking about when you make absurd statements like this.
Regards,
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Stability of Java
These types of responses are not what I expected. Instead of addressing
the issues raised I receive personal attacks. Violence is the response a
weak mind/programming language. I REST MY CASE.
Brian Mrkonjic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 10/13/2000 06:27:52 AM
Please respond to "A mailing list for discussion about Sun Microsystem's
Java Servlet API Technology."
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject: Re: Stability of Java
Graham,
That's no way to talk to Bill Gates.
Brian
>From: Graham Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: "A mailing list for discussion about Sun Microsystem's Java
> Servlet API Technology." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [SERVLET-INTEREST] Stability of Java
>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:11:29 +0100
>
>Well I wouldn't want to force any more of that sandwich down your
>knowledgeable throat. Maybe you should sign-off this list and leave some
>bandwidth to us poor remaining unenlightened folks.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Howard Taylor
>Sent: 13 October 2000 14:26
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Stability of Java
>
>
>
>I have been on this little "chat" board for less than 24 hours and I have
>seen enough to confirm to me that Java is a bad tool. I have never in my
>life seen a development tool that is so misunderstood. No one knows how
to
>use. It is about as crude as COBOL. I have never seen anything like it.
>The lack of professional documentation should send a strong message to the
>programming community. Error messages come up and there is no way in this
>world to find out what they mean. Just look at some of the questions that
>come across these emails. I have yet to see someone answer a question
>posted. That is because nobody can say with any degree of confidence that
>their solution will work from machine to machine. Isn't Java supposed to
>be OS independent? Why does code work on one machine and not another?
Why
>are there so many different development tools that are supposed to do the
>same thing? Why is it that all of these tools install and leave a
>directory structure behind that a person using a different tool can't
>recognize? Java is just a huge shit sandwich that SUN is trying to ram
>down our throats in their little battle with Microsoft.
>
>We have very talented programmers on staff where I work and we cannot get
>any consistency out of Java. PEOPLE, HEAR THIS ... no one will ever have
>success making a car that can accept parts from other cars ... PERIOD.
>There is no way that Java will ever work. There are too many variables
>involved from machine to machine to allow Java to run consistently. Let's
>take a web site that runs applets. You can bet your ass that a good
number
>of people who hit the site will have an error when that applet tries to
>run. It happens every day when I get on. As soon as that happens to me I
>am out of there and you just lost my interest/BUSINESS.
>
>Even if you think you can make it work was it worth all the time it took?
>Hardly. I have been trying to get a very simple servlet to run that I got
>out of the Deitel & Deitel Java How To book. D&D swears it runs on their
>machines. Why won't it run here. I have sent numerous emails to them and
>they have been trying to figure out what is wrong but can't. These guys
>are supposed to know what they are doing. A perfect example of the
>instability of Java.
>
>How many millions of man-hours are going to be wasted on Java before IS
>managers realize it doesn't work? We need to get back to the business of
>client server programming and trash this cancer of a tool.
>
>I CHALLENGE SUN TO DEFEND THIS PRODUCT. IT DOES NOT WORK AS BRAGGED.
>
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