Hugely readable as always, Shiv. Could I add a tuppence to this? Quite apart from this view of society within Hindu India, there was until historically recorded times an alternative discourse going on. I think that your observations need to be held next to the Buddhist social view as well, in order to understand better how in that social view, social status was re-defined, not to mention the obvious comparison with Islamic social views.
In the social architecture that you have modelled, which is pretty much a fair summary of the Hindu world-view, you have already pointed out that the system can't be changed. It can't be changed because the 'gate-keepers', if you please, do not allow changes, because any change will thereby bring in the acceptability of that and any other change. And that possibility will threaten the supreme position that the gate-keepers have awarded themselves. If they are to stay supreme, the view of society they preach must stay supreme, and there must be no amendment or alteration of this view. Unless promoted by themselves, under strict supervision to ensure that no radiation has leaked at the time of transfer of the fuel-rods. Sorry, couldn't help myself: what I mean of course is that only the 'gate-keepers' could change the process, and they could only do so under the colour of complicated and esoteric rituals not to be shared with the common man, indeed, not only the common man but very often not shared with other 'gate-keepers' as well. Historical examples of this were the absorption of various north-western tribes: the Pahlavas, the Sakas and the Kushan/Yueh Chi/Tocharian, for instance, possibly the Gurjaras; the absorption of Tibetan-Burmese groups into Nepalese society on similar lines and based on similar 'Hinduisation' (Sanskritisation is the accepted academic word) practices; the absorption of the Ahoms into north-eastern India, into the melting-pot of varna that eastern India represents. The point being? The point is that this inflexible hierarchy, detached from livelihood, that you have described is far from actual practice. There was always a way to get important groups in, also ways to re-define the original positions of important groups already 'in', so that their social status matched their increasingly important political status more closely. The second point is that this view that you have shown was a Hindu-centric view, and it is only over the last millennium (actually, somewhat less, but I'm feeling lazy this Sunday morning) that the alternative social model has fallen behind in importance. I am referring, of course, to the long Buddhist tradition in northern and eastern India (again, because of Sunday-based lassitude, I am leaving southern and west India out for the time being), which offered an excellent mechanism for transcending your original position in the pecking order and climbing out of it, or climbing out of the whole mess altogether. Even during the early mediaeval Hindu revival, very large sections of society went 'crypto', as in the case of the Maranos, and there is a close link between Tantrik Hinduism and the Buddhist practice that it more or less evolved from, sometime between 800 AD to 1200 AD. This situation too offered ways out of the designed-in rigidity of the new varna system. Such competition, and providing such dangerous alternatives, was obviously not welcome; note that one of Shankaracharya's forays was reputedly to Kamrup to combat the Tantrik excesses of Hindu belief and practice there and to bring them back to the pure springs of Vedanta. The 'gate-keepers' fought this alternative social structure as hard as they could. It didn't work, of course. The moment opportunity came, people deserted this born-again, sterile Brahmanism in droves and turned Muslim. The wet-lands of Bengal, according to one analysis, were converted to Islam through voluntary adoption, not through the sword. So, two points: there were alternatives to this frozen state of social status till about 800 years ago, alternatives which actively competed with orthodox Hinduism; when these alternatives were stamped out, more or less, another very effective, far more hostile alternative turned up and was taken up in huge numbers. Can we never change our social status? Only under the mainstream current Hindu social architecture. Alternatives existed before, and may exist again later. And there is always the possibility of turning Buddhist or Muslim. I hope I got your point in the first place, and I hope that this observation addresses some of the issues you raised. One is always uneasily conscious of possibly having spent huge amounts of time answering a question that was possibly never asked. As regards the article, I have a slightly different view, but this has run on for too long, and with an apology for the length, I'll stop here. bonobashi --- On Sun, 31/8/08, ss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: ss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [silk] curious about whether this is a reasonable article... To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Sunday, 31 August, 2008, 7:10 AM On Saturday 30 Aug 2008 8:11:08 pm Perry E. Metzger wrote: > The following article about economic progress and the Dalits appeared > on my doorstep this morning. As an ignorant foreigner, I'm curious > about whether it is considered to reasonably reflect reality: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/world/asia/30caste.html > > Perry The article per-se is fine. It does reflect 21st century reality for the "fifth varna" - the so caled ("untouchables/harijans/dalits/Schecduled caste or tribe") If one must understand the caste system I call your attention to the second paragraph of the arictle Quote: "Mr. Prasad was born into the Pasi community, once considered untouchable on the ancient Hindu caste order. ". The "Pasi community" is Prasad's tribe or "jati" (rhymes with "party") India is a collection of tribes - essentially endogamous ethnic "communities". I am a member of a tribe too as are many of the Indian members of Silk. My tribe is called "hoysala karnataka". My father and mother and my grandpatents were all hoysala karnatakas. But my wife is from a different tribe (Madhwa). These "tribes" are otherwise known as "jatis". Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
