Reply in your text.
-----Original Message-----
From: Guenter Poelz [SMTP:po...@mail.desy.de]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 4:11 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>Solutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
Hello,
let me contribute with what I have learned in chemistry. Many things
have been stated already many times in this list. I will try to clarify
some statements:
Ions and colloidal particles both are charged, but they are different.
- Metallic ions are formed when one or more electrons are stripped from
the outer surface of the uncharged metallic atom. Such an ion is then
positively charged. (It is also possible, but much more difficult, to
attach an ion to a metallic atom to generate a negatively charged ion).
Ions are also often formed by breaking a molecule into two "radicals".
If the electrons are unevenly divided, one part (with too much
electrons) becomes a negative ion, the other one (with lacking
electrons) becomes a positive one.
Water is an excellent medium to penetrate into salt molecules and breaks
it into ions (kitchen-salt NaCl is broken into Na+ and Cl-; also water
itself H2O breaks into H+ and OH- ).
Thanks.
- Colloidal particles are formed by uncharged atoms or molecules. In the
formation process they lump together, bound loosely e.g. by water
bridges, but can fasten the bonds by chemical activity. These giant
molecules are formed so quickly that H+ or OH- (depending on the kind of
colloid) are caught and also built into the loose structure and gives
the colloidal particle its charge.
Would you call that a hydrated silver, or is it a different thing when the
hydroxyl and the proton are separated? Do you know where I can learn about
the geometry of this substance?
If there were not an equal number of both bound into a given group, you
could have an Ag sol with a negative charge as well as a positive charge.
That would make some of them stick together?
What does this mean for our CS?
With low voltage direct current (LVDC) we detach silver ions from the
silver rod connected to the (positive) anode. In our solution we have
then silver ions Ag+, H+ and OH-. But when the Ag+ travel through the
water, some of them recombine with the OH- and form neutral AgOH
molecules. These molecules now lump together and include H+ ions. These
positively charged colloids repel each other and prevent the formation
of larger particles or even precipitation of the whole stuff.
What happens to the ones which have more H+ or OH- when they meet their
complement?
Some Ag sol particles precipitate. When the individual ions come off the
electrode, what causes some of them to clump into large clusters and others
clump into small clusters?
The faster the colloids are formed
Are you talking about the rate they leave the electrode, or the rate they
form into clumps with protons and OHs?
the more H+ ions are included, the
stronger is the repulsion which leads to smaller colloids.
What happens to the Ohs left over from the H+ being bound with the silver?
Adding salts
to a colloidal solution means adding of foreign ions
So, it is an immigration problem!
which are attached
to the colloids and disturb the repulsion. Precipitation will result.
I don't know about that, but I do know that high currents will make Ag
particles which will precipitate without much of anything else in the
water.
I think with LVDC we generate colloidal silver oxide which is formed
from the AgOH by chemical transformation.
Isn't silver oxide relatively insoluble in water? This would leave a lot
of protons. The sol would become acid?
If one wants to generate metallic colloids one has to use a different
process: One has to evaporate metallic silver by sparking under water,
by evaporating silver with a energetic laser beam, by ultrasound etc.
These silver atoms, dispersed in water, also lump together, but
typically include OH- ions.
Are any of the folks on the list building the laser devices? Will they
work with 3 9V batteries?
To improve the insulation of the colloids from each other, and not only
rely on the electric repulsion, some companies manage to cover the
colloids with a skin of organic compounds, e.g. proteins.
To what group of colloids the HVDC or HVAC CS is belonging, I have no
idea.
Hopefully this helps to clarify,
Thanks, I will have to think about this more.
JOH
Gunter
"James Osbourne, Holmes" schrieb:
>
> Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your
> statement:, "The manner of
> creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight
> forward, if not fully understood." , certainly applies to me.
>
> My comments to excerpts from your last post:
>
> Ian:
> "The manner of
> creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight
> forward, if not fully understood.
> One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which
> would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a
> positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there
> are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at
> the cathode as hydrogen gas."
>
> JOH: I am suggesting not that the proton enters the nucleus of a silver
> atom to create a new element, but that it may be somehow associated---is
> that vague enough?---with the metallic Ag cluster. Some of the hydrogen
> bubbles off at the electrode; some stays in solution as ionized water,
> balancing the pair of oxygen atoms. Isn't pH the log of the number of
free
> protons in the solution? If the electrolysis current took an extra
> electron rather than donating on it would leave a proton. Could some of
> them be contributing to the plus charge on/around(?) the silver cluster?
>
> Ian:
> "Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver
> ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and
> metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former.
> Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic
> ions are able to accept more electrons per particle."
>
> JOH: What is the difference between a "complex silver ion" and a
metallic
> silver colloid particle? Or, what is the difference between multiatomic
> ions---and a colloid? If multiatomic ions are able to accept more
> electrons than a bit of metal, doesn't that make them more reactive? Is
> there a difference between a multiatomic silver ion and a charged
metallic
> silver particle? Are we making some of both?
>
> Most everyone agrees that a silver salt, most certainly highly ionized,
is
> more reactive that a silver colloidal particle. Is that so?
>
> I think the question I have when boiled down is:
>
> if a single-atom "ion" is a "colloid", then what distinguishes it from a
> "dissolved" atom "in solution"?
>
> Thanks for your continuing instruction. Please be patient with my
> questions, they arise more from intuition than technical knowledge.
>
> And yes, I remain confused.
>
> James Osbourne, Holmes
>
> a...@trail.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:i...@win.co.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:59 AM
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: CS>Solutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: James Osbourne, Holmes <a...@trail.com>
>
> > HI everyone,
>
> Hi,
>
> Solution:
> A homogenous mixture that remains mixed indefinitely.
> Particle size... 0.01 to 1 nm
> Will not filter out.
> Will not reflect light (no Tyndal)
>
> Colloid:
> Heterogeneous mixture.
> Remain dispersed by molecular motion (Brownian)
> Particle size...1 to 1000 nm
> Reflects light.
>
> Ion:
> (Physics and chemistry)
> Atom, radical, molecule or aggregate that has lost or gained one
> or more electrons.
> (Biology and medicine)
> The dissolved part of a solution (solute) which exists as charged
> atoms or molecules.
> >
> > Once again, the issue of what is "dissolved", "ionic", or a
> "charged
> > colloidal particle" arises.
> >
> > Bruce does think the silver made by his devices has a positive
> charge. He
> > does not think the charge is generated in the same manner as
> the charge
> > exists on a single Ag atom which is presenting its valence
> charge.
>
> There is no other way to create a positive charge other than
> removing electrons that I know of.
>
> > I believe when Bruce speaks of "ionic silver" he means a single
> atom,
> > dissolved in the water, with its outer shell receptive to
> bonding with
> > another atom. A colloidal particle is positive, but not as
> reactive as the
> > monoatomic silver.
>
> Pitty he does not speak *colloid science*.
> Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver
> ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and
> metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former.
> Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic
> ions are able to accept more electrons per particle.
>
> > How the positive charge is created is not know by me. Since
> charge is
> > quantatized(sp?)
>
> Whilst an electron has a particular charge, the energy required
> to remove or gain one is different in each element, and the
> conductivity is therefore different also. The energy required to
> remove a second electron is much higher than to remove the
> first... an so on.
>
> > , it means there is either a missing electron or an extra
> > proton somewhere. Or, something else? Could an ionized
> hydrogen
> > nucleus from the water be somehow stuck to the silver cluster?
> I wish I
> > could go back to school...
>
> There is no need to complicate things James. The manner of
> creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight
> forward, if not fully understood.
> One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which
> would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a
> positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there
> are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at
> the cathode as hydrogen gas.
>
> BTW, the zeta potential of a colloid is a measurement of the
> electrostatic repulsion between the charged particles and their
> Stern layers (neutralising layer of water molecules which travel
> with the particle) and the diffused layer, and derives its value
> from the charge on the particle, and is measured chiefly by
> measuring the particles mobility.
>
> Confused?
>
> > James Osbourne, Holmes
>
> Ivan.
>
> --
> The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver.
>
> To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to:
> silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com
> with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line.
>
> To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
>
> List maintainer: Mike Devour <mdev...@id.net>
