Hi Stephen,
Thanks for the additional information.
What is the URL at which the pix will appear?
You have a TEM? If so, are you considering doing pictures for others?
How are you measuring the charge on the particles?
How are you measuring total mg/L Ag?
Additional exchanges are included in your reply...
Thanks again,
James Osbourne Holmes
a...@trail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Quinto [SMTP:squi...@mindspring.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:01 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>RE: Uggh. Grunt. Me HVAC Brute have questions [sound
of
knuckles dragging floor, followed by sound of electrons smashing helpless
silver in the face centered crystial]
First of all, James (and take note Marshall),
I don't believe that 'stuff' about putting "a strong charge on the ion as
it leaves the anode". The ion will have the maximum charge it will absorb
in the act of being separated from the electrode whether it is separated by
high or low voltage. In fact it is current that does so. Excessive
current seems to mechanically leverage the separation of particles, over
and above the electro-chemical act involved.
And the velocity of charged particles in [pure] water is logically constant
given the argument above. Just as it would be altered [upward] by an
electrolytic solution (other than by the conductivity of charged ions
increasingly present in the sol.
And further, the presence of excess Oxygen and Hydrogen - result of the
electro-chemical process - makes for the opportunistic formation of oxides
and hydroxides, however fleeting, all of which are insoluble and
undesirable.
I've taken respectful note of the micro-amperages employed in some of the
postings here - quantifications that are the result of intelligent
experimentation and the success that results. Such efforts undoubtedly
increase quality exponentially.
As for aggregation, that phenomenon can only take place in the presence of
neutral {or elemental) silver. Mind you such particles are still a
colloid; thy just lack the magic that fascinates and tantalizes everyone
here.
It is true that there is not much oxidation or 'sludge' as Marshall puts
it, but there are large amounts of clumpy material and large
irregular-shaped particles.
Now.... to answer your questions point by point:
1. By TEM, and, yes, I will put the images up on our web site when they're
developed. As for the source of the material it would be unethical of me
to name it and I won't.
But it was sold as 10-12 ppm (and tested within that parameter) -- BTW our
production tolerances are 1.5
JOH: That is exceptionally fine process control.
2. I didn't take complete notes since I made two exposures (photographs).
So I cannot quantify here but will be able to do so once the micrographs
are developed (during the coming week).
3. See 2. above and... It appears that the particle size of a
near-perfect colloid probably ranges, in some presently unknown mathemat
ical formula I hypothesized about last night, from a very small complex of
?atoms (size of which is 3 or 4 Angstroms) to a larger one (say 30 or 40
Angstroms). They are NOT dissolved or vaporized-as is a solution or gas,
in no way the colloid we have been discussing here.
JOH: Is this the HVAC material? Am I correct in translating 30 Angstroms
into 3 point zero [3.0] nM? If so, that is some of the smallest HVAC Ag
sol I have heard of. It is frequently in the 0.5 to 10 nM range.
4. There appears to be a subtly regular for to these clusters of similarly
charged ions, and in concentrated visualizations of them they appear to
accomodate the shapes of those that are closest to them (the poetry I spoke
of, where all are connected even by the shape of space between them
[Seattle?]) When most dispersed they appear almost round.
JOH: This would indicate that the shape changes in relation to forces
interacting with adjacent particles.
The distorted shapes are like amoebas reproducing or mutants, unnaturally
distended and polyform, ie. lacking symmetry.
5. Our biological work is the result of an only recently installed
capability. In the first set of experiments, we undertook certain
inhibition experiments, comparing a number of products. We will decide
when an where we will try to publish the results. It has been an exciting
new dimension for us. And edifying!
Stephen
----- Original Message -----
From: James Osbourne, Holmes <a...@trail.com>
To: <silver-list@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 3:04 PM
Subject: CS>RE: Uggh. Grunt. Me HVAC Brute have questions [sound of
knuckles
dragging floor, followed by sound of electrons smashing helpless silver
in
the face centered crystial]
> Hi Stephen, et at,
>
> Steven wrote:
>
> "Have looked at HVAC colloid and, yes, it does have alot of particulate
> silver that is dispersed. But it also has significant agglomeration and
> some of the agglomerates are crystalline in form. Aswell, the distortion
> in form reflects the brutality of using such high votage. The particles
> are distended and obtuse, rather like the delirium that accompanies
fever,
> and quite large."
>
> 1. What method(s) did you use to examine the sol? Do you have any
images
> that you can share with us? What was the source of the HVAC sol?
>
> 2. Can you quantify "...it does have alot of particulate silver that is
> dispersed." a bit more? Like maybe particle sizes and overall mg/L of
> silver?
>
> 3. And can you do the same for, "But it also has significant
agglomeration
> and some of the agglomerates are crystalline in form."
>
> If not dissolved or vaporized, I was under the impression that all silver
> is in crystalline form. Do you know of other phase(s) existing in a
liquid
> which are not?
>
> 4. With what "undistorted form" of silver are you comparing the HVAC
> particles? Does this mean that the center faced cubic crystal of the
> silver brutalized by the HV is now forming different angles?
>
> 5. Can you share your data on the studies of HVAC v LVDC in various
> diseases?
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> James Osbourne Holmes
> a...@trail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Quinto [SMTP:squi...@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 10:58 PM
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: CS>Colour and silver oxide (long) was CS Makers.
>
> Marshall,
>
> Have looked at HVAC colloid and, yes, it does have alot of particulate
> silver that is dispersed. But it also has significant agglomeration and
> some of the agglomerates are crystalline in form. Aswell, the distortion
> in
> form reflects the brutality of using such high votage. The particles are
> distended and obtuse, rather like the delirium that accompanies fever,
and
> quite large.
>
> I have become a believer in the symphony of nature, and force (voltage in
> this case) must be applied with discretion and gentleness (to the extent
> that it is possible) if you want a result that is optimally beneficial.
>
> The HVAC product we looked at was ordered over the net and was as
expected,
> clear with a significant TE, so the agglomerates were clearly available
in
> the laser.
>
> >From an efficacy point of view, to date the LVDC product does better
> therapeutically that HVAC. But more on that when we have new data to
apply
> to the argument.
>
> Stephen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marshall Dudley <mdud...@execonn.com>
> To: silver-list@eskimo.com <silver-list@eskimo.com>
> Date: Friday, April 07, 2000 5:14 PM
> Subject: Re: CS>Colour and silver oxide (long) was CS Makers.
>
>
> >Stephen Quinto wrote:
> >
> >> I think it was Marshall who pointed out that AC reverses polarity at
the
> >> rate of 60 cycles per second, at least here in the States. And that
> >> consequently there is no anode and cathode since each electrode
> alternates
> >> in that role.
> >> The implication being that the colloidal particles that might
otherwise
> (in
> >> a DC process for example) possess the charge that gives them the
> catalytic
> >> quality of a true colloid as opposed to the flatter or neutral
qualities
> of
> >> elemental silver may be lacking.
> >> Stephen
> >
> >I do not believe this analysis is correct.
> >
> >I believe the situation must be analysed as a dynamic situation, as
> opposed
> to
> >a static, or near static situation as can the LVDC method.
> >
> >Two things happen differently with HVAC. First, since the polarity is
> >continually alternating, both oxygen and hydrogen are generated at each
> >electrode. Since both of these elements are much more active chemically
> than
> >silver, they react with each other, instead of reacting with the silver.
> This
> >is why HVAC can produce clear CS with no tarnishing of the electrodes
and
> no
> >production of sludge or other compounds of silver.
> >
> >The second important thing that happens is that we put a strong electric
> charge
> >on the silver ion as it leaves the anode. The strong field of several
> thousand
> >volts per inch causes the ion to quickly leave the area next to the
> electrode
> >where the silver ion density is so high as to cause rapid aggregation
into
> >unduly large particles. However some aggregation does take place.
> >
> >So we end up with positively charged particles that leave the anode as
> ions
> but
> >quickly become particles of some number of atoms each. This is true
also
> of
> >the LVDC method, although the rate at which the ions move away from the
> anode
> >is about 1,000 times faster for the HVAC method due to the higher
voltage.
> In
> >the HVAC method at some point the polarity switches and the particles
are
> >attracted back toward the electrode. However there are 3 effects that
> prevent
> >the vast majority of particles from reaching the electrode, which now is
> the
> >cathode.
> >
> >1. Particle size. Ions can travel faster than the larger colloidal
> >particles. Since they left the electrode as ions, then aggregated
> somewhat
> a
> >distance from the electrode, the rate at which they moved away from the
> >electrode is faster than the rate at which they return.
> >
> >2. Charge. Each particle has a positive charge on it. Thus each
particle
> >reacts to a sum of the electric field provided by the voltage on the
> electrodes
> >PLUS an additional force of dispersion from an area of higher
> concentration
> to
> >that of a lower concentration. This also results in a higher velocity
of
> the
> >particles away from the electrode, than toward it.
> >
> >3. Convection. HVAC put significant amounts of energy in the water
near
> the
> >electrodes. This results in heating of this area, and strong convection
> >currents which carry the particles away from the electrode toward cooler
> areas.
> >
> >The result is that a colloid can be produced that has no sludge, and has
> highly
> >charged particles.
> >
> >Bless you,
> >
> >Marshall
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver.
> >
> >To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to:
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> >with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line.
> >
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> >Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html
> >List maintainer: Mike Devour <mdev...@id.net>
> >
>
