Forwarded to SilverList FYI:

Hi Marv,

  > Mike,

  > I have  been  wanting to contact you. This is  a  good  excuse:
  >  "I won't clog  up the list with the detailed  measurements,  but they
  > are available  to anyone who wants them."
  > I advise  putting  it on the list,  as  many of us are keenly interested
  > in  what  you are doing.

  Thanks for  the email. Yesterday, I discovered  the  battery contact
  was intermittent,  so all the measurements are suspect. I am  in the
  process of  repeating them, but I change the configuration  so there
  is no direct comparison to any of the previous work.

  A few general rules are becoming clear. We have been barking  up the
  wrong tree.  A  high  voltage   is  not  needed  to  get appreciable
  conduction with typical distilled water. The initial  conductance is
  not constant  with  applied   voltage.   It  increases  with applied
  voltage, which is why everyone uses the highest voltage they can get
  without destroying their current regulator.

  The high voltage has several undesirable consequences.

  1. The  ion velocity is proportional to the  voltage  gradient. This
  means ions arrive at the cathode faster.

  2. When  the  ions  arrive  at  the  cathode,  the  voltage gradient
  compresses the  ion  cloud and keeps it close to  the  cathode. This
  increases the probability that particles will form.

  3. The  high cloud density means the particles  become  bigger. They
  become visible as black crud that coats the electrodes and  falls to
  the bottom of the glass, where they form a smudge. When we wipe this
  off, it  forms a heavy black residue on the tissue.  This represents
  silver that we are throwing away.

  The particles also coat the side of the glass, eventually turning it
  black. After  a  while,  the   coating  may  become  silvery  as the
  particles merge.  This can be difficult to remove,  and  may require
  H2O2.

  All these  problems disappear with the ULVDC process  (abbreviate to
  ULV to save time.)

  With ULV,  the  initial voltage across the electrodes is  2V  to 4V.
  This is  an  order of magnitude less than current  systems,  but the
  initial current may still be 180uA. This is in the same  ballpark as
  I used to get with 27 Volts!

  With the  low  voltage, the ion velocity is  an  order  of magnitude
  less, so the ions take longer to reach the cathode. This  means more
  time for  ion production before we start running into  problems with
  the ion cloud forming at the cathode.

  See Ivan's excellent post on electrolysis at

    http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m46719.html  

  When the cloud starts to form, the lower voltage gradient  means the
  cloud density  is  much less than before. This means  the  ions have
  less probability  of interacting, so fewer  particles  are produced.
  This means  less silver is wasted as black residue when we  wipe the
  rods.

  The particles  that do form are smaller, so they don't have  as much
  tendency to  fall  to the bottom and form a  black  smudge.  And the
  sides of the glass stay clear instead of turning black.

  > I am  very  interested in what your circuitry and  results  are. I
  > took an  Electronics  Tech. course in college, just  prior  to the
  > demise of teaching vacuum tube theory. Because I decided  to leave
  > electronics, as a vocation, I have not kept up with the industry.

  I don't think many people would find it complicated. Just put  a 22k
  to 47k  resistor  in series with a 9V  battery.  The  most difficult
  thing is  to mount it so the leads don't break. I cut a  small piece
  from a  pcb  with  plated-through holes to  mount  the  resistor and
  connect the  leads. I wrapped the leads so they  crossed  around the
  back of  the board for strain relief and applied a  bit  of ordinary
  plastic electrical tape to keep them in place.

  > Because of  what  you and Bob Berger have  been  writing  about, I
  > would like to build a system that would regulate voltage to a 1.2v
  > DC max. A possibility may be the use of the zener diode? I  am not
  > sure how  to go about it. Also, some way to automatically  shut it
  > down at 1ma/square inch of anode area (or some  adjustable current
  > limit, would  be  best)  Any  help that  you  can  give,  with the
  > circuitry is much appreciated.

  1.2V may be a little low, but you could certainly try it.

  I'd advise  against any kind of complicated circuitry. You  need the
  simplest, most robust system possible.

  As soon as you start adding electronics, you will run  into failures
  due to  ESD  events  (static discharge -  very  difficult  to shield
  against when you have external leads.)

  Also, complex electronics is very difficult to diagnose in the field
  without complex test equipment. So when things go wrong, you have no
  way to  support  someone at the other end of the  telephone  to tell
  them what to do.

  Even with something as simple as a single resistor in series  with a
  battery, you  will have reliability problems. The  battery connector
  can go  bad or intermittent. (A thin coat of ordinary  vaseline will
  clean the  crud  off  and allow  true  metal-to-metal  contact. This
  reduces the  contact resistance by a factor of ten, but  a  new coat
  must be  applied  every  couple of  months.  So  it's  a maintenance
  problem, but I don't know of any permanent contact cleaners.)

  The solder  joints  can corrode. You need to clean  the  solder flux
  residue properly - a mixture of 30% isopropyl alcohol and 70% laquer
  thinner which is primarily toluene or xylene, followed by a  wash in
  distilled water.  Dry  at  high  ambient  temperature  to  drive out
  moisture, and apply a good sealant. (Not silicone rubber - this will
  corrode copper when moisture permeates the silicone.)

  There are  many good sealants on the market, but they  are expensive
  and many  have  short  life. I'm  looking  for  a  good, inexpensive
  electronics sealant  and  will  let you know  when  I  find  it. I'm
  looking at  ordinary  nail  polish. It  is  inexpensive  and readily
  available, but I need to do some research to see if anyone  else has
  experience using it as a sealant.

  The wires  can corrode under the insulation so it's hard  to detect.
  When people  are  in a hurry, they can jank on the  leads  and break
  them. So  the  wires need good strain relief, and  the  sealant must
  close the  gap  where  the copper exits. It  is  best  to  apply the
  sealant under  a  microscope  so you can check  the  quality  of the
  solder joints and make sure any gaps are closed.

  > My friend,  David  Topazian, is a founder of  MedSend.  He  is a
  > retired dental  surgeon, past president of  the  Christian Medical
  > and Dental Society. MedSend began as a collaboration  with another
  > member of  the   CMDS.   MedSend   provides  financial  support to
  > graduating medical/dental students who feel called to serve GOD as
  > foreign missionaries.  Most students carry such a  heavy debt-load
  > that it is not feasible for them to serve as missionaries. MedSend
  > makes it  possible for them to go, buy paying  their educationally
  > related debts, as they serve as missionaries.

  > My desire  is  to  create an inexpensive  CS  unit,  that  makes a
  > consistent product,  that will run unattended on  whatever voltage
  > source available.  A reliable CS source would be of  immense value
  > to these  folks.  Once developed, I plan to  build  the  units and
  > provide them  to  MedSend  without charge. I  would  send  them to
  > Connecticut and  MedSend would distribute them to  the  nearly 150
  > missionaries presently being supported in the field.  Naturally, I
  > would need  to  prepare  instructions,  troubleshooting  guide, CS
  > protocols for the various uses, a few CS success testimonies etc.

  The simplest system is a 22k to 47k resistor in series with  9V, and
  a watch  to tell the time. We need to develop a method  of detecting
  the quality  of  the  distilled water, and a way  to  tell  when the
  process is done when the quality of the distilled water changes.

  The salt test is a very good indication of ion concentration, and it
  is easy  to teach people how to do. It can be done anywhere  salt is
  available. This could be useful to tell how long to brew the cs.

  There should  be lots of discarded 9V batteries from boom  boxes, or
  you could  make a holder for 6 used 1.5V AA's. The current  drain is
  so low they are usable for many batches.

  Remember to  coat  the battery terminals with  vaseline.  This keeps
  them clean and greatly reduces intermittent contact problems.

  > I expect  that  a source of DW or DI water would be  a  problem to
  > many. Perhaps  I would need to provide them with a few  gallons of
  > product, or a DW generator?

  Distilled water is a problem. If it is available, the quality may be
  questionable. I  had  great difficulty finding suitable  dw  here in
  Canada. The  local  WallMart  dw is not the best,  but  it  is quite
  satisfactory and always available.

  > This project  is in its infancy. Anything that you can do  to help
  > is very much appreciated.

  I am involved with a similar project to send units to  farming towns
  in Russia.  They  are  very  smart  people,  sometimes  with limited
  resources. But I know they have plenty of used batteries:)

  If you  like, you can post this reply to the Silver List and  see if
  anyone has more ideas.

  > Best regards,
  >>:) Marv

  > Marvin Hacker

Best Regards,

Mike

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