Thanks for the replies. Excellent arguments, but they are much as I expected. I'm not sure it's going to be so easy to chuck two billion years of biological evolution without loosing something important. I suspect that the human/cyber combination is going to ultimately leverage the best of both worlds.
What makes humans smart is more than intelligence. This is the main problem for AI and the primary fallacy of the Singularity, transhuman intelligence concept. Computers may well achieve advanced intelligence and some form of consciousness but they may never be as smart and creative as humans. Human thought is patterned after biological evolution. The evolutionary thought process can be divided into three elements. (I am purposefully not using the narrower concept of "intelligence") Variation Selection Ecology Normally we think of variation as random, however that is not usually the case. Sex blends the genetic code of two partners in a mostly predictable way with a selective amount of random variation. Variation is important to intelligence as well, but usually within a narrowed range of perceived possibilities. Selection happens when a specific variation floats to the top of consciousness. It may or may not be appropriate. In human thought a concept or gestalt is selected as the most relevant or useful, though this is usually not a conscious selection. This happens within the current ecology, including the present environment and the person's perceptions and memories of the past. This ecology also includes the person's body with all its needs, limitations of perceptions . and two billion years of biological evolution. I would submit that the highest manifestation of human thought and creativity is art. For arguments sake lets use music. What is it that makes specific pitches aligned relative to each other appealing while other off-pitch notes are physically excruciating? The hell if I know, but it is certainly something that is deeply ingrained in our primal, biological, and genetic being. The appreciation of music is innate and for the most part uniquely human. The language of music and music theory can be highly complex and its understanding can make use of our high degree of conceptual intelligence. However, good music is not always complex, far from it. There is a strong emotional and creative component to music. Why are some chords happy and some sad? The hell if I know, but it is certainly more than just cultural programming or a process of the intellect. But here is the crux of my argument. Humans love the order and repeating pattern of music; rhythm, melody, verse, chorus. Humans in general seek to find and create order out of the chaos of the environment and perception. We like order. That is what intelligence is all about, creating order out of chaos. Intelligence is not only useful for daily survival and a way of developing tools and technologies; it is an integral part of creativity and art. However, there is another important aspect to advanced thought, creativity, cognitive capacity and its ultimate human expression, art. The first and most important aspect of evolution is variation. It's out of the chaos of random variation that evolution, intelligence and high level human thought and creativity arises. We love the predictability and order of rhythm and melody, but we also love the strategically placed minor note, the funky syncopated beat, the gravel in the blues singer's voice, and the dissonance of a modern jazz sax. It's controlled chaos that gives music and art its flavor. We love order, but we love the flavor and danger of disorder just as much. Humans may seek the predictable safety of an ordered life, but we crave the danger and challenge of the unpredictable, the funky, the forbidden, and the bazaar. You may look at advanced AI, transhuman intelligence as god like, as a guiding intelligence far beyond humanity. I just keep wondering how boring it will be. Will it be like white people without rhythm on nerd steroids, or Dick Chaney on crank? Will transhuman intelligence have a sense of humor. Will its cry. Will it have soul. That is the real challenge of AI. If you think human emotion can be replaced with shots of endorphins I know a crack dealer who would love to meet you. We rightfully fear the dangers of a run-amok transhuman intelligence. Computers are a tool and like any tool must be controlled and properly applied to achieve the goals of the person using them. Creativity is not only dependant on intellect. And, intelligence does not mirror the totality of a person's cognitive capacity. AI may become smart enough to achieve broadly defined goals, but ultimately it is the human who must set those goals. Until someone comes up with algorithms for creativity, empathy, humor, compassion and soul, I suspect humans should still be running the show. Don Detrich - [EMAIL PROTECTED] _____ From: Don Detrich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 3:48 PM To: singularity@v2.listbox.com Subject: [singularity] Will AI like Led Zeppelin? AI may well achieve consciousness, but can AI ever truly appreciate music and other forms of art? I'm not so sure. A key component in the appreciation of art is the subjective emotional experience, which is closely tied to our bodies and our biological past. Why does music create such a strong emotional response in humans? It certainly goes beyond anything learned or merely cultural. The appreciation of music is a primal human trait. The AI futurists focus on intelligence, advanced technology and solutions to all of the earth's physical problems as though that was the ultimate goal of evolution. However I would submit that the highest goal of evolution is art, creativity and the expression of complex and deep emotion. Was John Coltrane as brilliant as Einstein? He certainly was, and even though I deeply appreciate and enjoy the concepts in General Relativity I would rather listen to Coltrane blow his sax than hear a lecture on Relativity. Of course, there is an advanced intellectual element to music and most other art. Music theory is highly complex. But the best music is not always the most complex, far from it. If it were, then intricate, digital, computer generated, synthesized music would already have taken over. Instead, synthesized music can be lifeless and boring. There is clearly a component of music and art that goes far beyond anything merely intellectual and that something is certainly connected to our emotions and our bodies. You can feel it in that funky beat; it makes you want to dance. AI may be inevitable, but how creative will AI be? What will these advanced AI machines want? Intellect is hopelessly lost, goalless, pointless and boring without desire, emotion, sympathy, soul. Can a machine that has never experienced physical need have empathy, feel pleasure, have a since of rhythm and harmony, sing the blues? Where will AI's joy and sorrow come from? AI may always look to humans to set its goals because need and desire are uniquely biological traits. AI won't really give-a-shit what it does. Even though AI may achieve some level of conciseness and be able to communicate with humans it may always seem stupid, gullible, and lifeless because it will have no burning desire or since of joy. When AI develops a sense of humor it will really have arrived. I suspect that day is a long way off. However, I am looking forward to AI solving all the worlds problems so I can spend more time making music, painting, eating Thai curry, drinking good wine, playing Monopoly with my daughter, making love to my beautiful horny wife, watching old Bogart movies, and driving fast on a warm summer night with the windows down and "Whole Lotta Love" wailing from the CD player. _____ This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/? <http://v2.listbox.com/member/?&;> & ----- This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604&id_secret=40385443-02e018
