Hi,

There are a number of problems with your proposal.

First, you mandate SDP parameters to be in a specific order.

Second, you mandate the usage of rtpmap. Rtpmap is currently not required if you use 
static codecs.

My proposal would be to use a "ptime like" attribute, used together with the payload 
type number.

Example:

a=ptime: <PT> <ptime value>

...or...

a=fmtp: 10 ptime=<ptime value>

...or something similar.

I beleive work has been done on such attributes, but I don't remember the details.

Regards,

Christer Holmberg
Ericsson Finland

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Attila
> Sipos
> Sent: 3. marraskuuta 2004 11:07
> To: Danail Kirov; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Does RFC3264 allow different ptime for
> different audio codecs?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Danail,
> 
> I think your idea is OK.
> 
> As you know, in SDP, we use the "m=" line to start each media 
> description.
> So, your idea is to use the "a=rtpmap" line to signify the start
> of each "codec description".  I can't see anything wrong with this.
> 
> I suggest you subscribe to the "Multiparty Multimedia Session 
> Control (mmusic)"
> mailing list:
> http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/mmusic-charter.html
> 
> You can then submit your idea to:
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> You could also make a quick check of the new draft for SDP but I
> don't think it addresses your concerns:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-new-21.txt
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Attila
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Danail
> > Kirov
> > Sent: 02 November 2004 23:15
> > To: Attila Sipos; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Does RFC3264 allow 
> different ptime for
> > different audio codecs?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Attila,
> > 
> > "Can you show me an example of how you would do this?"
> > 
> > IMO to completely describe a codec one should provide the max 
> > packet time
> > the codec can accept on receiving and also the desired 
> packet time for
> > sending / receiving. Ideally and if it was up to me to define 
> > it, I would
> > have combined all this information in the rtpmap attribute 
> as follows:
> > 
> > a=rtpmap:<payload type> <encoding name>/<clock 
> > rate>[/<encoding parameters>]
> > <max recv ptime> <preferred send recv ptime>
> > 
> > For example my g.711 implementation by firmware limitation 
> > cannot receive
> > more than 30ms packets and based on bandwidth restrictions 
> > and voice quality
> > concerns I would like to send/receive at 10ms. I would 
> > indicate this as
> > follows:
> > 
> > a=rtpmap:0 PCMU/8000 30 10
> > 
> > But his is asking for changing the rtpmap attribute 
> > definition and as such
> > is not likely to be taken easy. 
> > 
> > Instead, I think it is more likely to come to an agreement on 
> > a "better" use
> > of the already "loosely" defined ptime and maxptime 
> > attributes to describe
> > each individual codec as in the following example where 
> each ptime and
> > maxptime describes the rtpmap above it:
> > 
> >         m=audio 5004 RTP/AVP 0 4 18 101
> >         a=rtpmap:0 PCMU/8000
> >         a=ptime:10
> >         a=maxptime:30
> >         a=rtpmap:4 G723/8000
> >         a=ptime:30
> >         a=maxptime:60
> >         a=rtpmap:18 G729/8000
> >         a=ptime:20
> >         a=maxptime:80
> >     a=rtpmap:101 telephone-event/8000
> > 
> > With this approach there is no need to specify ptime and 
> maxptime for
> > rfc2283.
> > 
> > Do you think something like that could be defined and agreed upon?
> > 
> > Regards,          
> > Danail
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Attila Sipos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 1:53 PM
> > To: Danail Kirov; Danail Kirov; Linda Xiao; 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Does RFC3264 allow 
> different ptime for
> > different audio codecs?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Danail,
> > >>2. How is the rfc2283 packet time presented if rfc2283 is 
> > listed in the
> > >>"m=" line?
> > As you know, the RFC2833 packet interval should be the same
> > as that for the selected RTP.  So, the RFC2833 packet time
> > can't be fixed - and so a '-' is used.
> > m=audio 5004 RTP/AVP 0 4 97 18
> > a=rtpmap:0 PCMU/8000
> > a=rtpmap:97 telephone-event/8000
> > a=mptime:10 30 - 20
> > 
> > >>3. The most important question. Can somebody definitely say 
> > that based on
> > >>RFC3264 and RFC2327 one can not use more than one "a=ptime" line?
> > I would say that it doesn't explicitly say you can't use more than
> > one ptime line.  It also does not explicitly say that multiple
> > lines of ptime should be used to indicate separate packet times
> > for the different codecs.
> > 
> > >>The
> > >>following is a question from Christer Holmberg which was 
> > left unanswered
> > in
> > >>your previous thread and is exactly my question as well: 
> > "Which "rules"
> > are
> > >>you refering to?
> > 
> > When I said "the rules", I meant the rules in the SDP RFC 2327.
> > The problem is that the ptime attribute, in my interpretation,
> > is not related to a specific profile but to a specific media
> > description.  So this is a problem if you have multiple profiles
> > with different packet times.
> > 
> > >>RFC2327 does say ptime is a media attribute, but I can't
> > >>find anywhere said that you can't specify separate values 
> > for specific
> > >>codecs (using it together with rtpmap)."
> > 
> > Can you show me an example of how you would do this?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Attila
> > 
> > 
> >         -----Original Message-----
> >         From: Danail Kirov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >         Sent: Tue 02/11/2004 19:36
> >         To: Attila Sipos; Danail Kirov; Linda Xiao;
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >         Cc:
> >         Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Does RFC3264 allow 
> > different ptime
> > for different audio codecs?
> >        
> >        
> > 
> >         Attila,
> >         I've researched the archives and found you had 
> > similar discussions
> > last
> >         year, but it appears there are questions still 
> > unanswered. Maybe you
> > guys
> >         resolved them in some other form.
> >         1. Where is the use of mptime defined? I looked at 
> > the PacketCable
> > docs
> >         referenced at some threads and couldn't find it there.
> >         2. How is the rfc2283 packet time presented if 
> > rfc2283 is listed in
> > the "m="
> >         line?
> >         3. The most important question. Can somebody 
> > definitely say that
> > based on
> >         RFC3264 and RFC2327 one can not use more than one 
> > "a=ptime" line?
> > The
> >         following is a question from Christer Holmberg 
> which was left
> > unanswered in
> >         your previous thread and is exactly my question as 
> > well: "Which
> > "rules" are
> >         you refering to? RFC2327 does say ptime is a media 
> > attribute, but I
> > can't
> >         find anywhere said that you can't specify separate 
> values for
> > specific
> >         codecs (using it together with rtpmap)."
> >        
> >         I am surprised the SIP community would leave this 
> > unaddressed for
> > such a
> >         long time?
> >        
> >         Regards,
> >        
> >         Danail Kirov
> >        
> >        
> >         -----Original Message-----
> >         From: Attila Sipos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >         Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 1:05 AM
> >         To: Danail Kirov; Linda Xiao; 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >         Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Does RFC3264 allow 
> > different ptime
> > for
> >         different audio codecs?
> >        
> >        
> >         This is still an officially unaddressed problem 
> (and I really
> >         don't understand why).
> >        
> >         We (and some others) support the mptime or (x-mptime)
> >         attribute.
> >        
> >         So your list would get compressed to:
> >         m=audio 5004 RTP/AVP 0 4 18
> >         a=rtpmap:0 PCMU/8000
> >         a=mptime:10 30 20
> >        
> >         Some use x-mptime instead of mptime:
> >         a=x-mptime:10 30 20
> >        
> >         We allow for both.
> >        
> >         Regards,
> >        
> >         Attila
> >        
> >         Software Engineer
> >         http://www.vegastream.com/
> >        
> >        
> >                 -----Original Message-----
> >                 From: 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of
> > Danail
> >         Kirov
> >                 Sent: Tue 02/11/2004 00:51
> >                 To: 'Linda Xiao'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >                 Cc:
> >                 Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Does RFC3264 
> > allow different
> > ptime
> >         for different audio codecs?
> >              
> >              
> >        
> >                 The problem with this approach is that I can 
> > not specify
> > what is my
> >         codec
> >                 preference 0, 4 or 18 - i.e all of them are equal.
> >                 Also with this approach the "answerer" may 
> > choose to accept
> > all "m="
> >         streams
> >                 and to start sending audio data on all 3 of 
> > them...while I
> > really
> >         want a
> >                 single audio stream.
> >              
> >                  -----Original Message-----
> >                 From:   Linda Xiao 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >                 Sent:   Monday, November 01, 2004 4:30 PM
> >                 To:     'Danail Kirov'; 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >                 Subject:        RE: [Sip-implementors] Does 
> > RFC3264 allow
> > different
> >         ptime
> >                 for dif ferent audio codecs?
> >              
> >              
> >                 I think you can (or should) use multi-line of "m=".
> >              
> >                 m=audio 5004 RTP/AVP 0
> >                 a=rtpmap:0 PCMU/8000
> >                 a=ptime:10
> >              
> >                 m=audio 5004 RTP/AVP 4
> >                 a=rtpmap:4 G723/8000
> >                 a=ptime:30
> >              
> >                 m=audio 5004 RTP/AVP 18
> >                 a=rtpmap:18 G729/8000
> >                 a=ptime:20
> >              
> >              
> >                 Regards/Linda
> >              
> >                 -----Original Message-----
> >                 From: Danail Kirov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >                 Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 4:14 PM
> >                 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >                 Subject: [Sip-implementors] Does RFC3264 
> > allow different
> > ptime for
> >         different
> >                 audio codecs?
> >              
> >              
> >                 Hi All,
> >              
> >                 Is it allowed to add
> >                 a=ptime:xx
> >                 for every codec listed in a single m= line?
> >                 For example:
> >              
> >                 m=audio 5004 RTP/AVP 0 4 18
> >                 a=rtpmap:0 PCMU/8000
> >                 a=ptime:10
> >                 a=rtpmap:4 G723/8000
> >                 a=ptime:30
> >                 a=rtpmap:18 G729/8000
> >                 a=ptime:20
> >              
> >                 All the samples I've seen so far imply there 
> > is only one
> > ptime per
> >         m= line,
> >                 but this does not describe the "real world" 
> > where one would
> > want to
> >         use
> >                 different audio codecs with different 
> packet times and
> > different
> >         codecs
> >                 operate on different [ms] frames.
> >                 G.711   - 1ms
> >                 G.729   - 10ms
> >                 G.723   - 30ms
> >                 i.e - specifiying  10ms does not make any 
> > sense for G.723,
> > but does
> >         for
> >                 G.729 and G.711.
> >              
> >                 Regards,
> >              
> >                 Danail Kirov
> >              
> >              
> >                 _______________________________________________
> >                 Sip-implementors mailing list
> >                 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >  
> > http://lists.cs.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sip-implementors
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> >              
> >        
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> > 
> 
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