Hi,

as I stated before, at this point, if you think specifying this feature is useful, it should be done in a separate (new) spec. It is too late in the process to add new features to the multiple-refer draft.

Cheers,

Gonzalo


Qian Sun wrote:
Hi, Robert and Gonzalo

IMO, "multiple refer" doesn't need AIB part of Referred-By. As Gonzalo said, 
the relay (e.g. conference server) understand what is going on, it must have 
authenticated the identity of the Referrer. So the Referred-By header field and 
'recipient-list-history'(the same function as Refer-To) are creditable for final 
REFER-Target.

The triggered SIP message sent by the relay just needs to include Referred-By header field (maybe plus recipient-list-history), the Referred-By token is not necessary (like the example "7.2. Insecure REFER" in rfc3892). The information in Referred-By header field is still very useful for final REFER-Target to learn the source of the message.
It's not worth writing a separate spec for this, just adding few texts to this 
draft may be OK. Since this draft has mentioned Refer-Sub, why not says 
something about Referred-By?

BTW, there are very few commercial IMS implementations on the planet, but we 
believe the future of IMS must not bad, maybe same to Referred-By with AIB.

Cheers,
Qian

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Sparks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:43 PM
To: Gonzalo Camarillo
Cc: Qian Sun; Miguel Garcia; sip; Aki Niemi; [EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Sip] Re: [Sipping] RE: Comments on 
draft-ietf-sip-multiple-refer-01.txt

As much as I like the Referred-By mechanism, before investing too much time into extending Referred-by for this case, ask yourself seriously if there is a customer for the work. AFAIK, there are no implementations of the AIB part of Referred-by on the planet (please speak up if you have one) and I know of no-one who plans to build it. Unless that changes, I think we'd all be better off spending our time working on things
that people will actually use.

RjS


On Jul 17, 2007, at 1:34 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo wrote:

Hi,

[moving this thread from the SIPPING list to this one (SIP) because this is a SIP document now.]

You are right. It is not trivial to use Referred-By with multiple REFER. My suggestion is that, the same way as Referred-By is specified as an extension of refer, you go ahead specify (if you are interested) how to use Referred-by with multiple REFER in a different spec.

The body that the referrer would add to its REFER (which is what the refer target would get) could be an XML list with the recipients (those that can be disclosed) of the multiple REFER (plus the referrer). Something similar to what recipients get after a relay processes a list with copyControl attributes (draft-ietf- sipping-capacity-attribute-04.txt)... in any case, since multiple REFER is only used within a context of a service, you need to think whether having a general Referred-By mechanism is needed or if such functionality can be achieved in a different way within the services multiple REFER is used in (e.g., conferencing).

Cheers,

Gonzalo


Qian Sun wrote:
Hello, Gonzalo
RFC3892 says:
   The sipfrag inside a Referred-By token MUST contain copies of the
Refer-To, Referred-By, and Date header fields from the REFER request. In multiple refer case, the Refer-To header field includes content id, not the REFER-Target' URI. The content id is meaningless to the REFER-Targets, so the Referred-By token has to include the URI- List.
Cheers,
Qian
-----Original Message-----
From: Gonzalo Camarillo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 4:23 PM
To: Qian Sun
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Comments on draft-ietf-sip-multiple-refer-01.txt
Hi,
thanks for your comments. Answers inline:
Qian Sun wrote:
 > Some comments on the draft...
 >
> 1. I think it might be a good idea to talk something on "Referred-By" in this draft. Referred-By mechanism is still very useful for the multiple refer case. Maybe Refer-To related to a URI List with "bcc" or "anonymize" is a trouble. "Referred-BY” in the message header is to identify the initial REFER-Issuer. This information may be encrypted together with "refer-to" URI list, including the copy control level such as to/cc/bcc to the end user, i.e. REFER-Target, where the information will be decrypted by the REFER-Target. In this case the REFER-Recipient won’t be able to get rid of the "bcc" URI from the URI list, and the "bcc" URI will be sent to other REFER-Targets along with normal to/cc. This will be a problem to destroy the blind cc function. > However, the REFER-issuer may opt to not include a Referred-By token. For example: > REFER sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED];gruu;opaque=hha9s8d-999a SIP/ 2.0
 >    Refer-To: <cid:[email protected]>
 >    Referred-By: Carol <sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 >    Content-Type: application/resource-lists+xml
 >    Content-Disposition: recipient-list
 >    Content-Length: 362
 >    Content-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 >
 >    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
 >    <resource-lists xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:resource-lists"
 >            xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance";>
 >      <list>
 >        <entry uri="sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" />
 >        <entry uri="sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" />
 >        <entry uri="sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" />
 >      </list>
 >    </resource-lists>
 >
> When the URI list has no "bcc" or "anonymize" URI, REFER-issuer may include the Referred-By token in the REFER body.
The way Referred-By works is not affected by what this draft says.
Therefore, I do not see the need to talk about it.
 >
> 2. Nested refer in multiple refer is very interesting, I believe it could be a good idea to enroll a "multiple nested refer" example into this draft. Just for an example: > REFER sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED];gruu;opaque=hha9s8d-999a SIP/2.0
 >    Refer-To: <cid:[email protected]>
 >    Content-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 >
 >    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
 >    <resource-lists xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:resource-lists"
 >            xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance";>
 >      <list>
> <entry uri="sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3Dsip:conf-123%40shenzhen.example.com" /> > <entry uri="sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 3Dsip:conf-123%40shenzhen.example.com" />
 >      </list>
 >    </resource-lists>
> In this case, the REFER-Recipient acts as a Refer List service, has the similar function to the MESSAGE List service, i.e. receives a REFER with URI-List and distributes some REFERs to each address in the URI-List. > Note that, there is only one final REFER-Target in above "nested multiple refer" example, not multiple REFER-Targets. In some situations, this convergent feature is useful.
The draft says the following:
    Additionally, REFER-Recipients SHOULD only accept REFER requests
within the context of an application the server understands (e.g., a
    conferencing application).
this text was added to avoid relays being used as random traffic
forwarders. Therefore, since a relay needs to understand what is going
on (e.g., a multiple REFER to trigger BYEs towards several conference
attendees) and currently there is no service that uses nested refers, I
do not think we need to talk about it.
 >
> 3. I guess it might be a typo in Figure 2 "8. 200K OK", maybe you meant "200 OK"?
yes, thanks for pointing it out. We will fix it.
Thanks,
Gonzalo
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