Eric Burger wrote:
I'm trolling my e-mail contacts (pardon the pun) on how they do MIME decoding.

On the second paragraph: if you are a proxy that is actually doing something with the body, *and you are going to hack the body*, then I would offer you've created something that most likely will be some kind of B2BUA.

Thats a different case. A B2BUA *is* a UA, so I suppose these rules about handling apply to it. (But I know it will get more confusing when considering B2BUAs that are more "proxy-like" in their handling of the body - just passing it through and perhaps peeking into it.

I was concerned with true proxies. E.g. I know there are proxies that look for SDP bodies and use them as input to policy decisions for control of gates in the media path. Similarly, I can imagine a proxy that scans bodies of MESSAGE requests, recording them and perhaps alerting when certain keywords are noticed.

I'm not certain what relevance the handling parameter has to such a proxy. Perhaps none.

In the e-mail world, the ;handling property was created for gateways (B2BUA's), so the gateway could know whether dropping a body part, because the connected network/protocol could not handle that body part, would render the message useless. For example, if I am using an old version of Outlook, and I send you a Word file, the Word body part is required for the relay, but the application/tnef (proprietary Outlook stuff) is optional and the gateway can silently drop the part.

That is quite different than what we are setting up here. We are in the process of saying that if there is some part with handling=required, and you don't know how to process it, then you should fail the request, before you have processed any of it.

That provides nice, clear, unambiguous semantics. But it may not be realistic. I don't have the sense that is how mail works. But then mail is different because there is typically no error message to the sender.

Its unclear to me whether there is much that can be shared of mime processing between a sip UA and a mail client/UI. Maybe not much, so that differences in processing logic are ok. But maybe some significant part can be shared, especially when exchanging info that is to be "rendered", such as with MESSAGE. If mime libraries can be shared, there is reason to keep the processing semantics the same.

        Thanks,
        Paul

On Oct 1, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

Ok, ok, UNCLE!!!

I'd still like to know if email clients need to do this two pass approach - first searching for all the references to determine if all the handling requirements can be met, and then actually doing the processing of the referenced parts?

Also, it *is* legal for proxies to process bodies. But its obviously not required (by the protocol) for them to do so. Do we have a clue how the handling parameter applies to proxies? I assume in effect they can just ignore it and consider handling to be optional for all parts. Also, I presume a proxy that cares about body parts might want to investigate all the alternatives of a multipart/alternative, since it can't know which one the recipient will choose.

    Thanks,
    Paul

Eric Burger wrote:
Agreed. And, echoing what Keith said, what Dale has done is prove (from a Computer Science perspective) that complete evaluation of unfettered MIME is *possible*. It is up to the implementor to figure out whether they want to take short-cuts (and risk barfing on legitimate messages) or do the whole thing. The point is doing the Full Monte *is* practical on small, memory and CPU constrained devices. So the argument "We can't do the real thing because it hurts" is provably not legitimate.
On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 From: Paul Kyzivat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I agree it would be straightforward to define a rule that says one must
 recursively unwrap all multipart/mixed bodies in order to find other
 parts to process. But we ought to think if we really want to do that.

What alternative rule do you propose as the meaning of
multipart/mixed?

 Potentially this could introduce a lot of extra processing.

That's sort of like saying that "x = 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0"
involves a lot of extra processing.  Yes, it does.  But it meaning is
clear, once we define what "+" means.  We could try to outlaw that
expression and "expressions like it", but there's no sensible boundary
to enforce -- Do we ban expressions with more than five addends?  How
about more than one addend which is "0"?  Any possible solution to
this problem is worse than the problem itself.

What I am advocating is that we explicitly abandon the attempt to
define only the situations that intuitively make sense, and instead
define a set of simple, well-defined rules that make clear what is
valid and what is not, and what the valid cases mean.  Just like we've
done with arithmetic expressions.  Otherwise we'll never escape the
swamp of trying to discern which ones make intuitive sense.

 From: Paul Kyzivat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

RFC 3459 uses multiparts in a somewhat different way that SIP does.
In SIP, the I-D suggests that components of a multipart/alternative
should have handling=optional and that the processor should ignore the
handling parameter:

   The UA SHOULD also set the 'handling' parameter of all the
   body part within the 'multipart/alternative' to 'optional'
   (the receiver will process the body parts based on the
   handling parameter of the 'multipart/alternative' body; the
   receiver will ignore the handling parameters of the body
   parts).

   The receiver SHOULD ignore the handling parameters of the body
   parts within the 'multipart/ alternative'.

Right. But the SHOULD without qualification suggests that somebody might
 do otherwise, and we don't know under what circumstances that might
happen. So if somebody sets all the parts to handling=required, it seems
 that the handling of the unselected parts will still be ignored.

Yes, I see the problem there.  I'd replace that last SHOULD with MUST.
Actually, I argue that MUST is implied, as the RFCs define how
multipart/alternative is to be processed, and that algorithm does not
look at the handling parameters of components of
multipart/alternatives.

 Suppose I want to send a MESSAGE, and I require that some form of the
 body be processed. I will offer it in two forms: text/enhanced and
 text/html. How do I encode that?

      C-T: multipart/alternative
      C-D: render;handling=required
          C-T: text/enhanced
          C-D: render;handling=optional
          ===
          C-T: text/html
          C-D: render;handling=optional
 or
      C-T: multipart/alternative
      C-D: render;handling=required
          C-T: text/enhanced
          C-D: render;handling=required
          ===
          C-T: text/html
          C-D: render;handling=required

C-T: multipart/alternative
C-D: render;handling=required
   C-T: text/enhanced
   ===
   C-T: text/html

'render' is inherited from the parent, and the handling of the
components is ignored.  We could also take it that MESSAGE implies
that the body is 'required', so the handling specification of the
parent is also optional.

 And if I don't support either of those text types, what error do I
return? 415? In the first case it seems a little odd to return an error
 if I selected a part that is optional.

415.  The I-D is clear that 415 is how you respond to messages which
are not processable due to a failure of these MIME tests.

 And if I didn't require either part to be understood, would I just
 change to handling=optional for the multipart/alternative itself?

Intuitively, I'd say that MESSAGE demands that the entire body be
processable, so handling=required is implicit for the entire body.
But assuming that we did not make such a deduction from the SIP
context of the message, if the body had handling=optional, it would
have the effect that the request could succeed even if the requester
did not understand the body.  (Hmmm...  That's another clause of the
algorithm I overlooked.)

(Note that there are cases where understanding the body is optional.
E.g., a sipfrag of the request in a failure response.)

Dale
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