Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:21:15 +0000

Title: Message
Nish,
I am receiving mail at that address - that is what I am using to receive this list.  I have not received any mail from you.  I will check my mail server to see if it is somehow blocking your IP - I do have some foreign IPs blocked due to excessive spam, so that is a possibility.  What is the IP address(s) of your mail server(s)?
 
Thanks,
Gloria
----- Original Message -----
From: Nish Park
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

Hi Gloria,

In the past 2-3 days we have sent you some emails at this email address - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

We have not received any communication back from you. Please check this email account.

 

Nish

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gloria Vester
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 10:02 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

I understand about the power issues and how long of a reading it takes to find transient power problems.  Back in the "olden" days of the computer business when I was doing field service on mini computer systems, we used to have to put recorders on the power to prove to customers that the flaky, intermittent problems they were having were due to power problems and not our equipment.  But electronics have come a long way since then, supposedly, and today's equipment, coupled with good UPS's have made that type of problem history, or so I thought.  As to the environmental conditions and static issues, IMHO, if the smartBridges are that sensitive, then that is a flaw in their design.  These units are supposed to be designed for outdoor use and therefore should not be so sensitive to environmental issues.  My Trango backhaul unit is on the same mast with one of my APPO's, grounded the same, its POE and power supply is in the same NEMA box, plugged into the same UPS, and its cat-5 cable is running right along side the APPO's, tie wrapped to the handrail on the water tower.  The Trango has not burped or glitched ONCE in the 4 weeks or so we have had this equipment up.  Now, the smartBridges may not be "bad" as in "non-operational", but they are exhibiting many glitches and much flakiness or sensitivities that the Trango is not.  I still think the APPOs are either overly sensitive to the heat or some other environmental condition that we haven't figured out yet.

 

Thank you for your help - it is much appreciated,

Gloria

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Tom Haynes

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 11:33 PM

Subject: RE: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

A basic voltage reading only tells a small part of the story. Most UPSs only 'fix' the voltage if it is outside of a predefined range. Mid priced supply a constant voltage from an inverter and battery while always charging the battery. While the voltage is fairly stable the waveform of that voltage is crude. The APC I recomended is an always on design with true sine-wave output. This is important for problem line voltages. Other power quality issues that a voltmeter can't show is harmonics, fast transiants, frequence, spikes, sags, current loading and more.

 

Another thing you may want to look at is static. In dry, windy conditions, the air moving over your data lines will create high static voltages. Since the water tower is painted there is no easy way for that static to disipate. Are your data lines in metal conduit? Is it grounded. Even though the radios cases are plastic and the metal mounting tabs have no electrical connection to the electronics, grounding the mounting tabs on the radio and entry seals to the NEMA box will help to reduce static on the cases and wire. If your wires are no in conduit, make sure they are securly attached to something so that there is no movement of cable on any surface. For severe conditions (like a water tower in the Texas summer :-) I would even reccomend making a wind break/sun shield that shields/covers your NEMA box and radios. A PVC box will produce A LOT of static. Use a metal box if possible, if not, line the inside with foil and wrap a small guage wire around the outside of the box several times, fold one end inside the box to touch the foil and then ground the other end.

 

I know this sounds like a lot of work, but static is a major radio killer that is very hard to track down. Power Line quality and static on transmission lines are probably the two biggest mystery killers is our field.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gloria Vester
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 11:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

Just got back from the water tower.  We replaced the old power strip with two new ones (didn't have one big enough for all the power supplies).  Unfortunately, that wasn't the problem.  One of the sb power supplies was plugged directly into the UPS, not the power strip, and it was locked up.  So we know the power strip was not the problem.  Checked the voltage at the output of the UPS for about 20 minutes and it was rock solid at 117.5V, never fluctuated more than .4V.  Of course we would have to put a power recorder on it to test for 24 hours to see if anything like a pump cutting on is causing a large spike or drop, but the UPS is supposed to filter out the majority of that.  So basically, we are back at square one.  It has to be either power related or heat related since we replaced one of the radios and that didn't help, or all the radios that have come out of SB since June have the same tendency.  Which I really doubt.  So still open to ideas.  We are going to try and get some sleep while they are all up before something goes down again and the phone calls start up again.

 

Thanks to everyone for your help - and keep the suggestions coming,

Gloria

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Tom Haynes

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 10:17 PM

Subject: RE: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

Is the power strip also a surge protector? You only want one AC surge protector inline with your devices. Use a power strip that is only a power strip (like an AC splitter). Having two surge supressors in line has a strange effect of making each one LESS effective by tricking the other in to thinking the surge is not as bad as it really is and letting more noise through.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gloria Vester
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

Actually, my tech and I are discussing power issues right now.  That seems to be the most likely culprit at this point.  I think we are going over to the water tower and change out the power strip and see if that helps.  All the POE's are plugged into the same power strip which is plugged into the UPS.  Our Trango has not burped once and it is plugged directly into the UPS.  Maybe our power strip is noisy or has a bad ground.  Will let you know what we find when we get back from the tower.

 

Thanks for all your help - I sincerely appreciate it,

Gloria

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:39 PM

Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

Do NOT rule out power.  It could be a little too high or a little too low and MOST ups units won't compensate for that.

 

Also, if there are large pumps there it's quite likely that you are getting intermittent brownouts that the unit won't quite kick in for.

 

See if a local electrician has a voltage recorder.  We saw many VERY strange copier problems caused by power issues.

 

It seems VERY strange that FOUR units would all do the same thing at the same time.  I've used 3 or 4 of them of late and had NO bad ones.  Only a dead eithernet port but that happened after a wicked lightning storm and we also lost a computer nic card on that same system so I'll not blame sb for this one.

 

I'm home if you want to call and talk about some of this.  The office line rings here too.

509.982.2181

 

marlon

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:31 PM

Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

It just keeps getting better.  Now three of them are down, which means only one is up.  We know for sure now that it is not the POE, the power supply, or the radio, unless the one I got in as a replacement has the same problem as the one it replaced, which is highly likely.  Either all the APPOs have the same problem, including the ones that are still shipping, or we have some kind of weird power problem.  Since everything is plugged into a UPS, I don't see how it could be power, but I am not ruling out anything at this point.  Now I just have to try and convince the only tech on duty tonight to climb the water tower again.  This makes six nights in a row that he has had to climb that damn tower.  I know, I know we should have designed it with things on the ground, but we didn't know we were going to have this much trouble with the equipment, and we were trying to make the city happy and keep everything as unobtrusive and out of sight as possible.  It is too late to redesign the whole system, we don't have the money to start all over.

 

Gloria

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 8:03 PM

Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

Get a couple of 100' high grade extension cords.  Put your ups unit on the ground and when you need to reboot them just pull the plug for 10 seconds.

 

Not a good fix but better that what you have till we figure out what to do about the ap's....

 

marlon

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 11:39 AM

Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

Marlon,

My AC runs up the water tower from a breaker at the base of the tower.  There is an AC outlet in my NEMA box with the UPS plugged into it, a power strip into that, with all the power supplies and the D-Link switch plugged into that.  All the cat-5 is outdoor rated, shielded and gel filled, all cables tested with a cable tester after being built up on the tower.  As for lightning arrestors, we haven't had any sign of lightning or a drop of rain in months - this is north Texas where rain doesn't exist from June until October.  I don't see how I would run a power cord down the tower, it just doesn't seem possible.  We can try moving the cat-5 cables around to different ports on the switch to see if it is one port on the switch that is failing, but since we have had two different units fail now with the same exact problem and they are on different ports, I don't think that would tell us much.

 

Any more ideas - I am always willing to listen and try different things,

Gloria

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 1:00 PM

Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

First off, run a power cord to the bottom of the tower for a bit so you can just unplug it to reset everything ;-).

 

If multiple units are seeing failed eithernet ports you might need to look at your switch.  Also, might want to make sure you have good lighting arrestors on the cat 5 ports.

 

In almost 4 years of this wisp stuff I've only lost a couple of ethernet ports and both of those were at the same place and on the same linksys cable router.

 

Until this fall.  We lost two sb radios with dead ethernet ports durning a storm.  One ap and one client.  At one location the homeowner also lost the ethernet port in the dell computer.  At another location all radios are fine but the customer lost a nic in a dell computer.

 

I'm thinking that there may be some crappy ethernet ports on the market?

 

marlon

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 9:50 AM

Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

Marlon,

I don't have any spares here.  The only extras I have are the one we took down night before last that we thought was bad, and an indoor that was sent to me instead of an outdoor.

 

We replaced the POE with a known good one on Wednesday night, we replaced the radio itself Thursday night, and replaced the power supply last night.  So far it is up, but it usually takes about 24 hours for it to go down.

 

Now a different one is down - same problem - dead Ethernet side, can't talk to it.  This is the first time this one has gone down since we put them up three or four weeks ago.

 

If you have any more ideas, let me know.  I am willing to try anything at this point, if my techs don't quit because they are sick and tired of climbing the water tower every night to either reset something or replace something.

 

Thanks for your help,

Gloria

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 10:24 AM

Subject: Re: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

You have other ones there right?

 

First, swap ethernet ports on the switch.  Swap power supplies and then power injectors (I just had a bad power shot) with a known good working unit.

 

If none of that works, swap the ap with a known good working unit.  If the problem moves, yep, really bad luck!  If the problem stays with another radio, it's environmental.

 

I know when we first got started we were on one end of a 30 mile ptp wmux link.  It would totally shut down my radio.  Similar to what you are seeing.

 

Call me and let me know what you find or if you'd like to talk about this a bit more.

 

*Time to learn those trouble-shooting techniques ;-)*

 

marlon

509.988.0260 cell

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 6:30 PM

Subject: [smartBridges] help with APPO problem

 

Anyone got suggestions as to what is causing one of my APPOs to go down?  We have had to climb the water tower and reset it three times in the last week.  We replaced the POE on Wednesday and it went down again Thursday.  I ordered a new unit overnighted and replaced the unit last night.  It worked great all day today, but is down again now.  The outdoor rated cat-5 run is only about 20 feet, the cable was tested with a cable tester before putting it in place, everything is water proofed (even though we haven't had rain in months).  What else is there?  The POE was replaced, the entire unit was replaced, and we still have the same exact problem.  When it does this, the Ethernet LED is off, the Power and TXRX LED is on solid, and we have no communication with it.  Did I get so lucky as to get two bad units with the same exact problem?  The only item that has not been replaced is the power supply - could that be bad?  All the other units on the water tower are working fine since I upgraded the firmware last Sunday.  They are all plugged into the same switch, which is plugged into a UPS and all of it is in an air conditioned NEMA box.

 

smartBridges tech - or anyone - help!

Thanks!

Gloria

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