Rod,
With that said is it not true that a determination by the maintenance
contractor is needed to assure that the system(s) being maintained
"have
been properly installed" in order for NFPA-25 to apply ?.
The scoping statement is very clear, systems that have not been
properly
installed are outside the scope of NFPA-25 so in effect an NFPA-25
inspection of an improperly installed system is null and void.
My point in this discussion is that the ultimate fire protection
goal is
to assure the health, welfare and safety of building occupants and
property protection where applicable. When a building owner or an AHJ
receives a certificate of inspection from a contractor they assume the
system will control a fire as designed by the applicable standard not
that an unprotected area or deficiency was ignored simply because
of the
fine print of the maintenance standard. If that's the case an annual
inspection by a qualified fire protection engineer is in order.
Sincerely in the interest of Fire Safety,
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
Borough of Red Bank, NJ
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of rod
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Testing
John,
I agree with you that there are some real problems with the
inspections,
inspectors and enforcers. I do not believe however that we can get
into
a
situation where even NICET trained certified inspectors are getting
into
"protection deficiencies". This is a slippery slope and creates a
liability
for the contractor that NFPA 25 quite frankly puts on the owner. To
transfer
that liability to the contractor for $200 is not equitable. The only
people
with a "false" sense of security are those that do not read the
NFPA 25.
Rod DiBona
Rapid Fire
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Drucker
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Testing
New Jersey has extensive certification & licensing regulations for
fire
protection contractors. However coordination rarely occurs and flow
and
tamper switches are still be "tested" by alarm technicians moving
actuator
arms. I recently attained a flow switch improperly installed in a
copper
tee
to the extend the vane wasn't even in the water stream yet the "fire
alarm
inspection report" noted this device as functional even so far as
listing
the time delay.
Whats need in this situation is a requirement where only alarm
companies
and
or sprinkler companies be permitted to perform inspection in
testing in
suppressed/alarmed buildings that posess certification in BOTH
disciplines.
The reality is that even with NFPA-13, 72 and 25 gross errors and
omissions
are occuring during periodic inspections and tests. Inspectors should
know
how to identify protection deficiencies not just installation and
maintenance deficiencies. NFPA-25 certifications give a false sense of
security.
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official
New Jersey
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Testing
Tennessee where I work requires licensing.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Brown
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Testing
But when you look at the number of states that have a license
requirement
they are few. There are many of the larger cities have requirements
but
not
as a state. Look at Oklahoma, They have one of the best licensing
requirements I am aware of and they enforce it well for both the fire
alarm
and fire sprinkler industries. I think every state should be
looking at
what
the State of Oklahoma is requiring. Look at the web site for Oklahoma
Department of Health of the requirements if interested. They are doing
the
right thing! Every one associated with fire protection has to be
licensed.
Thank you,
Chris Brown
Fire Protection Designer, Poole Fire Protection
Office: 913.829.8650 Direct: 913.747.2056 Cell: 913.208.3600
Fax:
913.829.8690
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 2:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing
there is a fine point you are missing. The OWNER of a PRIVATE
facility
is
typically allowed to do as much of their own work as they want to.
It's when you hire out to do work for someone else that licensing
enters
the
equation.
Roland
On Jan 10, 2007, at 12:29 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Chris, Kansas isn't alone on that. I have a project in a nearby
state.
The owner wanted to do the installation himself. He has mechanics
that know how to use a pipe wrench. (this guy wanted a detail on his
drawings of how to install an upright head, yes we are in
trouble.......)
Anyway, when I called the state board of licensure and asked the lady
if you had to be specifically licensed to install sprinkler systems
her words were, "that's a good question, I don't know", so she
passed
me off to her department manager, who obviously read from the same
script
because he said the same thing. Seems in their state and local
municipality don't require permits or system inspections and so
anyone
can install it.
There is no consistency in the laws concerning licensing.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax -
864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris
Brown
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Testing
In the state of Kansas all you need is transportation to the site it
even could be by mass transit and you can work on any type of fire
protection system. Wichita has some requirements and Kansas City
Missouri has a sprinkler contractors license requirement but other
than that any one can work on any fire protection system. We have
plumbers installing sprinkler systems and electricians installing
fire
alarm system. They don't even know what NFPA is.
Thank you,
Chris Brown
Fire Protection Designer, Poole Fire Protection
Office: 913.829.8650 Direct: 913.747.2056 Cell: 913.208.3600
Fax:
913.829.8690
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregg
Fontes
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Testing
Does a C-10 and/or electrical/alarm contractors license allow them to
contract the testing of water base fire protection systems? (I.E.
opening inspectors test valves, operating control valves, testing of
Pre-action/Deluge/Dry systems, generally can they operate any
component of a fire sprinkler system that has an alarm affiliated
with
it?)
Gregg Fontes
Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc.
209-334-9119
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