Thom, My point was that people were going WAY beyond the scope of this building in their thoughts and design suggestions. I agree that the storage area is the focal point from a fire protection standpoint. No argument there. The reference to the "big box" warehouse was related to "possible" use scenarios of the building. It's a storage area supporting a garage not a Sam's club warehouse. That's my reason for emphasizing the GARAGE part of the occupancy.
Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Determining a Warehouse Commodity Classification I don't think that the "Garage" occupancy matters Craig. Once the amount of storage area, exceeds the design area for storage protection, your in the same situation weather the building is 4000 SF or 4.000.000 SF. Your relying on the fire sprinkler design to control the storage area fire. If it's a big Box (Which by the way our City in it's infinite wisdom says is any occupancy other than grocery store over 12,000SF) or anything else, does it matter if its the primary function of the building or secondary to the intended use? If you have a fire in the storage area, you'd better hope it was designed for storage. Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 7:33 AM Subject: RE: Determining a Warehouse Commodity Classification Seems some are missing that this is a repair garage, not a big box retail warehouse. But anyway Richard, I would suggest having the aerosols/flammable liquids stored in a fire rated cabinet to take them out of the rack storage equation. Sounds like the quantity is minimal so you shouldn't need a large cabinet. You can also drop a sprinkler into the cabinet for extra protection. Same with the batteries, put them in a separate room not in the racks. Then it appears that all you have left could be considered Class II as you have stated. As far as ESFR, I would say only as a last resort if you can't make it work with a control mode design strategy. I also think you need to run some preliminary calcs before calling for a fire pump on a project like this. The cost would be quite disproportional to the overall project value and is without doubt going to create some wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of the owner and GC. You state that you've got 20 psi at 1100 gpm, what is the static pressure? You need all the numbers not just flowing psi and gpm. Make sure someone has performed a proper hydrant flow test for you and make sure it's a recent test. If you can go to a Control Mode design you could possibly make it work depending on where your system falls within the curve. It might take some massaging of pipe sizes and some extra time in selecting valves and backflows etc. with the lowest pressure drop. I don't buy into the concept of trying to see into the future use of a building and over designing a system to accommodate what MIGHT be. Who's got a crystal ball to see all the possibilities? Design it conservatively but within reason and document what the design is based on. Over design based on conjecture increases cost and trying to ram a high dollar system down the throat of an owner based on "what might be" creates a lot of $$$$$$ heartburn for owners. Those are the kind of things that shed a negative light on our industry. People don't totally appreciate or understand what we do and all they see is the cost versus return on investment ratio of zero for that sprinkler system. >From a building code standpoint, is your office area separated from the storage and shop areas by rated walls/ceilings? Is the area above the office accessible for storage? Owners love to use that space for storage of all kinds of odds and ends. If it is, then don't forget about sprinkling at the main building roof level as well as inside the office. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lindner, Richard Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 12:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Determining a Warehouse Commodity Classification (I seem to have lost access to the archives, so I can't research this..) I am involved in an initial design (performance spec) for a warehouse type project consisting of a butler building approx. 300'x60' and 35' high in size (18,000 sq. ft.). Approx 7000 sq. ft. of floor area will consist of 25' high rack storage that is 42" deep with a 12" space and then another 42" deep rack. There are 5 racks of this arrangement with an aisle at minimum 9'-6" width between them. The shelving itself is wire decking. The center part of the building has some administrative area offices and other storage areas (no shelving shown). The other end of the building is a maintenance garage for repairs of vehicles. We have asked about what they intend to store on the shelving and have been told that primarily they are storing spare machinery parts, some of which are in wood crates; these are small, medium, large and very large. These include hydraulic cylinders, engines, transmissions, radiators, air chambers, pumps, belts, hoses, fittings, nuts, bolts (small items are in cardboard boxes in most cases), and tools (both power and non-power tools). Aerosol cans include brake cleaner, starting fluid, lubricant (WD-40), window cleaner, and paint. They carry no more than two cases (24 cans) of each item in stock. There are filters, including fuel, oil, air, water, and hydraulic types, all sizes and shapes. They also store spare pre-charged batteries. These are heavy equipment batteries; (2) large, (2) medium and (4) small are typically all they have on hand. We feel the rack storage area is our most demanding area. We have reviewed our options and feel that Commodity Class II would be appropriate based on the above information. Does anyone see something that might reflect using a different classification? Appreciate any response. Richard Richard K. Lindner Plumbing Senior Designer Morris, Johnson & Associates, Inc. 611 Industrial Way West Eatontown, New Jersey 07724 P: 732-380-1100 ext. 4186 | F: 732-380-1111 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.morrisjohnson.com -------------------------------------------------------- This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. 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