I don't know if it is quite that rare Chris? Worcester, MA FD had 4 - 2 1/2" handlines and I belive a 1 3/4" or two for the cold storage fire. Those weren't off a standpipe system, but they placed that many handlines in service nonetheless and a number of WFD engines showed up staffed with only 3 FFs (driver/officer included) that night. New England city FD staffing is generally on the higher side for the U.S., but Worcester is still a city of only about 170K or so. There's like 150 cities larger than Worcester in the U.S. I would definitely agree with you and unfortunately the the cold storage fire was not an exception, that if your flowing in 1000 gpm range in the bldg, the outcome is often not positive.
But how far do you pull back? A pair of 2 - 1/2's with smooth bores can flow 500 gpm+, so 750 might be a decent target. 2 - 1/2's with 1 1/8 or 1 1/4" tips is probably max for any handline an FD might use off the standpipe. The 1 1/4 tips would provide 600 gpm+ so 750 provides max flow for 2 maxed out handlines with some margin. 1 1/8 tips are probably more common and 750 should keep 3, 2 - 1/2 lines in service if it does that far. So that's a 1000 gpm down to 750 gpm. A definite decrease, but does just 250 gpm separate theory from reality?? Would you really take it down to that single line you mention - say 250 gpm? And yes, 21 yrs ago when started as a volly I might have high fived what ended up as a basement save, but today I think ahead and try to predict what interior attacks are going to be successful and which ones aren't, but sometimes it's tricky to balance the caution/aggressiveness. And today I save the high fives for my two daughters when I get home! Richard Malek [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:28 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Manual wet standpipes This is theory vs. reality issue. To flow 1000 gpm in a building either the FD needs to have 4-5 2-1/2" lines in operation or about 8-9 1-3/4". Each line takes 3-4 people to staff or one company. So the optimistic case with the rare FD set up with 2-1/2" lines 4 companies on the lines, plus at least 2 interior search and rescue, one outside to rescue FF if need be. Now we need to add all their replacements for when they run out of air and for them to get rest. So conservatively triple the number of working units to keep 4 lines in operation. And if you ever handled 2-1/2" hose under fire condition really 2 companies per line is necessary if you actually try to advance the hose. So IMHO 19 companies plus any logistical support is the minimum to sustain 1000 gpm in a building. There are very, very few places that could do this, even with mutual aid. Then there is another discussion about where exactly do you put 1000 gpm. If the fire is that big you got to start asking what are you doing inside the building. So theory is plan for 1000 gpm, reality is the human element can't or shouldn't pull it off. I'm sure someone will give an example of where it was done but these will be few and far between. I'd limit guesses to FDNY, BFD, Philly, Houston, Dallas, Miami, LA, SFFD, Chicago and at best a few other big cities. Neither Minneapolis nor St. Paul IMHO could do it, maybe working together, maybe. And they are like top 60 sized cities in the US. I'll admit another bias of mine. If the sprinklers don't control it or the first line doesn't get it the FD is just putting on a show for the public. Or at least with regards to the building of origin. For you other FF out there how many times did you give yourselves a high five for a great save only to see the dozers the next day. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Manual wet standpipes Along these same lines, why doesn't the code dictate FDC sizes based on system demand? For instance if there is one FDC feeding 3 standpipes I believe that 14 should require a minimum of a 3 way FDC to eliminate confusion and argument. Greg Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
