Hey Craig, I didn't stay at one, but I think I designed a system for one about
a week or so ago LOL.
The fun part of this is that heat flows from the object with more heat to
the object with less. The greater the difference in temp, the more rapid the
rate of transfer. Thus the "faster" answer. It is the reason they use hot water
in a Zamboni between periods in a hockey game.
As a real life example.., Having conducted sprinkler demonstrations in temps
close to those mentioned, you could not see an appreciable time change. Todays
sprinklers operate very quickly, most times well before the smoke detector.
This is an interesting point for the smoke detector and sprinkler debates. The
flames in the demonstrations I have done, almost always preceeded the smoke.
The smoke was more prevalent once the fire was snubbed by the sprinkler, then
the detector took over.
The real answer is not much affect at all given the RTI we use today.
R/
Matt
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
HA, Matt must have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently, hence his
expert opinion. Or maybe he's just bored too. lol
HEY MATT, What's up!
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Haugen,
Charles
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing?
I would disagree (imho)...
Just "off the top of my head thinking" here... But, if you have ambient
temp water resting atop a sprinkler head and the fire starts below...
Isn't it the 'bulb' that initiates the flow? And if it were based on
how warm / cold the water is... You'd think that colder water would take
longer to warm, hence the bulb still blows per it's design... If the
water were warmer in the system?? Maybe then, slightly quicker...
Again - just a different way of looking at it. It's hump day and my day
is only a little than half over...
C~
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew
Willis
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing?
Faster.
R/
Matt
I wonder what effect circulating 40-50deg chilled water through the
sprinkler lines would on the reaction time of the sprinklers versus them
being at ambient temperature. Anyone know?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing?
There were supposed to be filters at the cooling tower, and
theoretically this design would be LESS subject to MIC and adulteration.
But in a high-rise, we used one standpipe for supply and another for
return, and since they were VERY large diameter I suppose anything's
possible. Picture the cooling tower on the roof and the fire pump below
- the standpipe sizes were "backward scheduled" because of velocity
limits on the HVAC side. The buildings we did here had 8" at the top and
4" at the base ...
The long-term problems with these systems, both high-rise and non, was
leaks. Leaks at the valves, leaks here, there and everywhere, and the
night-only work hours just added to the pain.
Steve Leyton
PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing?
Hmmmm, a "special one of a kind system", was this in the 1985 edition of
NFPA 13? The oldest I've got at the office is '89, my '87 is at the
house (that way the ME's here won't use it anymore, LOL) But this type
system was in the '89. Often on these type of systems it may take years
before this type of deterioration becomes evident. But the thing is, for
circulating hvac systems we don't run hot or chilled water through black
steel piping without some sort of chemical treatment. It sounds like the
condition of this system is from lack of proper treatment and
maintenance along with some installation/design errors. But the
arm-overs are not the big issue since in a lot of if not most systems
being served by a treated municipal water supply, you don't need to use
arm-overs, might still be a good idea but arm-overs are generally
reserved for raw water systems. Were there adequate flushing
connections, were they used if present, who inspected the systems and to
what level of detail is what I'd be asking.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael
M. Fitz
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing?
I can't respond to the number of high-rise buildings that aren't
sprinklered in Seattle........Rich?
According to the information I was given, there were two buildings
designed for a local developer that used a combined HVAC and sprinkler
system. Unfortunately, pendant sprinklers were used in some locations
along with the connections from the bottom of the pipe. Guess where the
debris ends up?
I was shown two heads, both of which were not plugged or obstructed in
any way that had me concerned. I was led to believe that there were a
substantial number of heads that were totally plugged and that is the
reason for the major "maintenance".
The "maintenance" procedures I have seen in photographs or was told
about involved tapping the top of the pipe where there was access or
from the side of the main or branch.
As an engineer, I was impressed with the condition of the pipes as old
as they were. I suspect this is because there was water treatment for
the HVAC usage.
Michael
At 11:52 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
>I would be interested to know how many high-rise buildings there are in
>the town - that don't have sprinklers at all. Hmmmmmm?
>
>Terri Simmons Leyton
>PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING
>Ph: 858-751-2930
>Fax: 858-751-2933
>Cell: 619-871-8450
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod
>DiBona
>Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:49 AM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing?
>
>The craftsman was concerned with the integrity of the sprinkler system
>because the buliding had been mentioned as a prime terrorist target.
>That's interesting.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamie
>Seidl
>Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:11 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: So what's this return bend thing?
Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.I.
MDE Inc.
700 South Industrial Way
Seattle, WA 98108
Main 206-622-2007
Direct 206-957-2140
Fax 206-622-2248
Home Office 360-427-2751
Cell 206-321-1804
www.mde.com
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