There is wording in every code which refers to any variations as being subject to the approval of the AHJ. In most cases he is the final authority and can say yea or nay.
If as a contractor you are commissioned to install a system that has the potential to be sub-standard and you inform the EOR and AHJ of the issues before installation and the EOR and AHJ both accept the limitations as acceptable risk, then you as the contractor should not be liable if the system doesn't work, they should. Now if there is no EOR and no AHJ and you, the contractor install the system anyway, crossing your fingers and hoping that your system will never be brought into service, then YOU have assumed the liability. If a contractor is operating outside his "safe area" I'd say many times it's because he has chosen to. If you don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about a particular job and have grounds to doubt the design criteria or can even prove it's in error, first step is to go through the proper protocol for the project and either contact the EOR or the GC or the Owner and point out the issue. If you're doing design-build work where you may be doing the design and installation then you should have confidence in your install otherwise you've got the wrong people working for you. One thing I've found is that a lot of sprinkler designers live within NFPA 13 and never venture outside of that. If you have opportunity to go to some of the building code seminars you need to. There are many issues that affect fire protection design and that is one big area of understanding where many EOR's drop the ball. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 2:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Entry Vestibule situation... Which brings up a little twist to think about. Just because the powers that be approve or accept something that is normally not compliant with the code doesn't mean it shields you from liabilities that may arise out of not complying with the code. For example if a building requires per code a .6/2000 but the water isn't there and the AHJ approves a .3/1500 you most likely have assumed complete cost for the building and contents if there was ever a loss. Now I doubt you had that in your estimate. It's not hard and fast and design professionals that spec the wrong density become your best friends. Too often we contracts are operating outside the safe area. In your case if you don't put a head through the glass as I understand it you are buying any problems that arise out of the head not being there because no one can come up with a code reason that exempts the location. Well Thom has an idea on filling the space with non-combustibles. Doesn't matter if the AHJ accepts it. With an equivalency you may have some more protection but unless you have a PE on board you are probably running afoul of other laws. Of course I can't think of an equivalency off the top of my head either. Just an issue that comes up on the forum from time to time that doesn't get talked about much on the forum. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of RFI - Bismarck Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Entry Vestibule situation... Thanks all... Justin pin-pointed it. It's a glass enclosure with concrete walls, ceiling, and floor protruding 'out'. I'm looking strictly as a combustible area - nothing combustible about it... I have a meeting today w/ the powers that be to determine the fate of this space. Thanks for the info of ammunition to present! RFP C -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin Reid Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Entry Vestibule situation... Sounds like this is the entry to the building and is all glass (which is probably giving the access issues). You may be able to apply for an exception based on the argument that the vestibule is a circulation pathway and therefore will not likely contain combustibles. Otherwise, the architect needs to provide a means to conceal the pipe or they will have to accept exposed pipe. Let the design team know that there is no guarantee the sprinkler can be omitted from the space and that they should begin planning to accommodate the sprinkler head. Then meet with the AHJ and state the case. Regards, Justin D. Reid, P.E. Project Engineer RLH Fire Protection 468 N. Camden Dr. #290L Beverly Hills, CA 90210 Office: (310) 601-3013 Cell: (213) 798-0251 Fax: (866) 871-2237 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 9:08 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Entry Vestibule situation... Why would "access" to a "small entry vestibule" be "close to impossible?" Seems that an "entry vestibule" would be the one thing most accessible. Question aside, if there is access then the space space is not concealed, and even if non-combustible, requires sprinklering. I just had an ME argue that if you put "Authorized Personnel Only" signs on locked doors then the space behind that door was concealed. He got an Honorable Mention for stupid but creative try. Tis was in a jurisdiction where I'm told that the Building Official holds the Fire Marshal in high regard because of the latter's "creativity" in finding ways to avoid sprinklers by "clever" interpretations of the code. 2008/7/16 RFI - Bismarck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Forum... > > Have a building with a situation that I need help in addressing - small > entry vestibule (14'8" x 7') which has glass exterior and interior doors and > windows - full height; with concrete walls, floor, and ceiling enclosing it. > Access to this area is close to impossible... Is there anything in NFPA that > I'm missing which would allow me to exclude this area? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > RFP Chuck > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.0/1555 - Release Date: 7/16/2008 > 6:43 AM > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. 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