You cannot use tenting as a barrier. A concealed space is a concealed space. If it is exposed, the minimum protection is a layer of sheet rock, or plywood. Where you are allowed to use insulation is under the listing for the attic sprinklers from Tyco.
R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-387-1163 Facsimile [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:32 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CPVC Concealed Space Installation Doesn't the installation manual allow you to protect plastic pipe either with the special heads installed of the plastic pipe or with standard heads installed on steel pipe? Since an alternate exists in the manual, and since the manual is mute on using tenting as a fire barrier, and since 13 has specific allowances for combustible concealed spaces I still think this is not allowed. And when I worked for a living I did dream up crazy logic to apply want I wanted where but I never did this one. In fact the closest I can to this was the Buddhist Temple down around Albro & Rainier with the multiple stacked eaves. Russ allowed all but the lowest level of eave to not be sprinklered provided they built a one separation between the building interior and exterior at all these eave lines. The concealed combustible spaces were all filled with insulation to obviate the need for the sprinklers. On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:36 AM, R Richardson<[email protected]> wrote: > So to summarize, you are saying that the CPVC pipe in the attic that is below the insulation is not allowed if the attic is required to be sprinklered and the special heads are not being used - if I understood you correctly. > > If so, then what is an allowable separation, 1/4 gyp or plywood? Would the gyp or plywood have to be a 4 sided box, or only a three sided box (none underneath the pipe, ie: pipe resting on top of joists). > > The question is related to a longstanding allowance here, it just gets questioned every two years or so. Good chance you have installed it that way yourself back when you were "working" for a living, just kidding. > > And it sounds like Ron Fletcher installs it that way as well. > > For such a long installation manual you would think this basic question would have a clear answer. > > Thanks, > > Rich > >>>> Ron Greenman <[email protected]> 06/12/2009 07:36 >>> > Rich, > > You are allowed to delete sprinklers from concealed spaces filled with > non-combustible insulation. I'd bet this has to do with oxygen. You > can also use non or limited combustible insulation (batts and panels) > firmly attached to a ceiling to effectively lower that ceiling. When > you put cpvc in an SFD or apartment the tenting of the pipe > effectively places it within the thermal envelope of the structure > rather than without but the area the pipe occupies is not required to > be sprinklered anyways. So we're using insulation as a means of > turning a hollow space into a solid space, we're using it as a sort of > fire barrier or heat banking surface, and we're using it as a (low > level) thermal barrier or insulator. I've never heard of it used to > separate one fire area from another though. And horizontally! A > twisting of the real allowances offered in the code may produce some > logic path that suggests this application is OK. And it may even be > occurring regularly (bad ideas as well as good tend to find voice > simultaneously in many minds and tend to grow exponentially), but this > doesn't mean it is a good idea, nor it does it sound like an > appropriate application of the provisions. In fact it just sounds > wrong and I think easier to argue against than for. I'm guessing a > submittal is what prompted your question. > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:26 AM, R Richardson<[email protected]> wrote: >> The installation guide for CPVC is quite clear that the pipe shall not be installed in combustible concealed spaces requiring sprinkler protection unless the protection in the space is provided by one of the specially listed heads for such an application. Simple enough. >> >> However if one is sprinklering the concealed space with standard heads instead of the special listed heads it is not real clear what the required separation is to consider the pipe "not" in the concealed space. Sure there are criteria for a concealed installation, but that is specific to separation from the room below that is being sprinklered. >> >> In the experience of the forum members is it normal to use insulation tented over the pipe in as a method of treating the pipe as "not" in the concealed space, eventhough the pipe is still kind of in the concealed space? Or is the norm to use the concealed installation criteria eventhough that seems specific to separation from the room below that is being sprinklered. >> >> This question is not related to freeze protection concerns. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Rich Richardson >> Seattle Fire Department >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > at home.... > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
