And in the end 13R is a life safety system. Commercial spaces are public whether mercantile (M), business (B), assembly (A), education (private K-12) (E), or mini-storage (not exclusive to tenant use) (S). These spaces (and I think we can ignore E (public), F, H, I & U as unlikely here) all require a13 system whether isolated from the residential (R) portion or not. In some jurisdictions (not in mine if I was king of one) 13R and 13 are allowed side by side or even with the former on top of the latter but that is a local issue to discuss with your building and fire officials. Then there are some jurisdictions that allow V over I construction (again not allowed in my perfect kingdom). That is Type V residential construction up to four stories (with 13R sprinklers) on top of one or more stories (story=building level above grade) of Type I construction (with 13 sprinklers). Crazy idea, which, in my opinion, that takes a lot of brain twisting vis-a-vis the IBC, although most architects disagree (which I think proves my point about it being a crazy idea).
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Todd Williams<[email protected]> wrote: > What that reference implies that the BFP will act as the check valve, > which would normally be located between the connection to the FDC and > the water supply (separate from the check valve on the FDC piping.) > > > At 11:16 AM 8/12/2009, you wrote: >>You are right about the double check I have up to now always put one on a 13 >>or 13R system but while looking for something else I came across the 6.7.1.6 >>reference and it made it sound like for a 13R system you did not need it. >> >>Karen Purvis >>Senior Designer >>Facility Systems Consultants >>713 South Central Street, >>Suite 101 >>Knoxville, TN 37902 >>ph.865-246-0164 >>fax 865-246-1084 >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church >>Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 11:24 AM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: RE: Mixed occupancy >> >>First, I would not design a building with commercial space to 13R because >>IMHO the building no longer is strictly residential in nature, the >>commercial spaces don't sound like they will be restricted to >>non-residential use incidental to the residential nature of the building. So >>if this was my job, it'd be 13. >> >>The backflow requirements would be the same, a double check detector >>assembly around here 99% of the time- whether 13 or 13R. >> >>Are you saying you don't install a backflow preventor on your 13R systems? >>And the water purveyor turns it on and furnishes service to these buildings? >> >>glc >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Karen Purvis >>Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:29 AM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: RE: Mixed occupancy >> >>As for the building it is an apartment building with three floors of >>apartments. The ground level has apartments and the front of the building >>has space for 6 commercial locations. I don't know what will go in those >>spaces. Since the majority of the building is apartments I designed as a >>13R. >> >>The second question is in reference to 13R 6.7.1.6 "A listed backflow >>prevention assembly shall be considered a check valve, and an additional >>check valve shall not be required". In all my commercial builds I use a >>double check backflow. So I guess my confusion is because there is mixed >>occupancy would I use the double check because there IS commercial or just >>use a single check BECAUSE its 13R. >> >>Karen Purvis >>Senior Designer >>Facility Systems Consultants >>713 South Central Street, >>Suite 101 >>Knoxville, TN 37902 >>ph.865-246-0164 >>fax 865-246-1084 >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church >>Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:23 AM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: RE: Mixed occupancy >> >>Hmm. If the business portion of the occupancy is incidental to the >>residential use of the building, as in a cafeteria serving a dorm, then you >>drag over the couple items of #13 that 13R references for areas outside the >>dwelling units. If it's a restaurant serving the general public but located >>in a hotel, then the design is to #13 for the entire building- unless its >>two buildings within the definitions of building separation in your >>applicable building code. In either case, the riser is sized by the >>hydraulic demand. >> >>I cannot imagine where you'd have a situation where the backflow preventor >>is dependent upon 13 or 13R. In 13D you could omit the BFP in certain >>instances, but that doesn't seem to be in your question. Why would the >>occupancy change the need for backflow prevention in your mind? Water still >>sitting there stagnant. >> >>glc >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Karen Purvis >>Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:06 AM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: Mixed occupancy >> >>These probably are questions everyone knows the answers to but I can't find >>the answers: >> >> >> >>1. If you have a mixed occupancy (residential & Business) and your >>design is a 13R does your riser need to be at least a certain size or just >>large enough to serve the hydraulic area? >>2. Because there is something other than residential in the building >>would I not need a backflow on the riser? >> >> >> >>Karen Purvis >> >>Senior Designer >> >>Facility Systems Consultants >> >>713 South Central Street, >> >>Suite 101 >> >>Knoxville, TN 37902 >> >>ph.865-246-0164 >> >>fax 865-246-1084 >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
