Rahe is right as an AHJ and owners rep. The key wording in the listed definition is acceptable to the AHJ. FM is apparently not acceptable to Region 7 of GSA. Maybe all GSA. And they enforce this through the specs. So it would be extremely hard if not impossible to fight. Doesn't matter what the law is you would have a contractual violation.
But he's also wrong if he was a city AHJ. In the private sector, where most of us do most of our work, he'd lose all day. But you'd have to follow the legal system through to the end to win if a local AHJ said no FM listings. Do you think there is a judge out there (that's not related to the AHJ) that would find FM lacking. The burden of proof would be on the AHJ to show why it's not an acceptable listing org. I'd bet it would be hard to even get to a court because the DA (city attorney) would argue the case and would drop it before it ever got anyplace. Same would apply to a British listing or Australia, Japanese etc. You can use them based on the definition of Listed in NFPA 13. Now with foreign you'd probably need to supply why they are roughly equivalent to what we are used to in the US companies. A listing is different than an example of a design criteria that is less than the NFPA 13 minimum. NFPA 13 is adopted as the legal minimum in most places. This will be an interesting issue as FM rewrites the standards for special application listings. Some of them are less than the 1.2 along the BL and less than the number of heads on the RA that would come from NFPA 13. Even if it's an FM job the law always supersedes an insurance company requirement. Is less heads than NFPA 13 a listing issues or a design issue? I'm not arguing if FM will put out the fire. I'm sure it will. And IMHO using FM data in this case is crap because if I go to service the building later how would I ever know I had to maintain a 7" radius vs. a 3" radius. And how's this twist. In the back half of the building I use 7" and in the front half I use 3" because I'm closer to the riser. Technically legal, practically crap. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel Wilder Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:49 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Flex Head Friction loss I respectfully disagree with this. The FM standards dictate that number or turns and minimum radii (based on length) be maintained in order to have their tested friction loss be accurate, same for UL. Whether or not the turns are maintained after turnover on future work is another matter and where a better argument would be had for using the larger friction loss. Viking sprinklers (Vertical Sidewalls), Reliable K-22 Magnum, Tyco ESFR-17 all carry FM approval only, and I would think these would be utilized on more than just FM projects. >From recent experience, a metal Foldgers Coffee can on a stick gets your 3" minimum radius checked pretty quickly, and the AHJ seems to find a little humor with the field guys on this during visual inspections. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 3:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Flex Head Friction loss Dennis, If this is not an FM job, then they have no dog in the fight and you cannot use them to reduce your equivalent lengths. Since there is no FM inspection and no FM insurance, you will have to use the UL equivalent lengths and submit the shop drawings and calculations to the local AHJ with the correct equivalent lengths in your calcs. Thank You Rahe Loftin, P.E. Region 7 - GSA Office - 817-978-7299 Fax - 817-978-8644 Cell - 817-371-3102 "Dennis Browning" <firesprinkl...@c To harter.net> <[email protected]> Sent by: cc sprinklerforum-bo un...@firesprinkl Subject er.org Flex Head Friction loss 11/11/2009 12:34 PM Please respond to sprinklerfo...@fi resprinkler.org We are doing a job using flex heads. They show different equivalency loss for FM and UL listings. 9.6 ft versus 27 ft. respectfullt. What should I use? This is not a mandated FM project and I am designing to 2002 13 light/ordinary hazzard. I would rather use the 9.6 factor. At what point would I need to use the higher number? I am not getting this. Dennis Browning Browning Fire _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- ExchangeDefender Message Security: Click below to verify authenticity http://www.exchangedefender.com/verify.asp?id=nAC0m3if001467&from=d...@deser tfire.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
