D'Arcy-Weisbach, Hazen Williams. . . Bilbo!! How Cool!!! Mike Cabral
---- Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo <[email protected]> wrote: > > Frans, > > > > Thanks for your interesting story about formulas and such. I started on a > Tandy TRS-80 (from Radio Shack)and I know that I was late to the game. I > must admit to being impressed by folks with a solid math background. I am > only able to use the tools I have been given during my limited career, and > being in the Sprinkler Industry has not left much time for advanced math. > > > > According to Skyler Bilbo, the young man that deduced the formula: > > > > - No integral required. > > > > - One straight formula with 4 different variables. The formula can produce > incorrect results with ridiculously high flows and very low pressures. (Of a > kind never encountered in the sprinkler industry.) > > > > An associate of mine in San Diego, that I consider brilliant, used the > formula on 70 different systems that had been previously done by hand using > the "guess and check" method we currently use in the industry. He reported > that every calculated flow and pressure matched his beyond an accuracy of > one-thousandth. > > > > We anticipate more peer review after submitting a report for upcoming > editions of trade magazines. > > It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA > 13 Committee on Installation Criteria, and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee > Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the > official position of the NFSA nor the NFPA, nor any of their technical > committees. > > Sincerely, > > > Cecil Bilbo, Sprinkler Geek/Teacher Dude > Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology > Champaign, IL > 217-363-2460 > www.sprinkleracademy.com > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:59:42 +0100 > > To: [email protected] > > From: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16 > > > > George, > > > > True, it can be done without assumptions, although one needs an > > integral to solve it. > > The integral is of a type that cannot be calculated, but has to be > > discovered. > > It is a lengthy formula and it works for tree type systems only. > > With the integral it is possible to calculate directly the normal > > pressure on nozzles, sprinklers and branch lines without "looking" > > forward at the upstream flow. > > In 1983 I could prove mathematically that the integral exists. In > > 1984 I finally discovered the integral. > > The reason that I was looking for it, was that computers were still > > very slow at that time, so iteration required a lot of patience. > > > > Incorporating normal pressures in a grid or looped system can still > > be done by iteration only (= with assumptions), although the > > assumptions can be estimated automatically. > > > > That same year (1984) I used the formula for the first time in > > hydraulic calculations for a Du Pont de Nemours plant in Holland. > > Du Pont invited me for engineering purposes to Wilmington, where I > > also met Mr. Howard W. Packer, member of the NFPA TC for water based > > systems. > > At one of those trips I brought my self-built portable computer case, > > containing a Sinclair ZX81 with a Memorex spreadsheet module (a.o. > > peripherals). > > Du Pont had organized a television set to act as computer screen and > > I had changed the Sinclair from the European PAL output format to NTSC. > > This configuration allowed us to perform computerized hydraulic > > calculation of the deluge-systems, incorporating normal pressures in > > the calculation. > > The output was printed by a Sinclair printer on an aluminium colored > > 4 inch wide paper strip. > > > > In those days Du Pont also had their first Intergraph computer to > > make digital process piping layouts. > > The Intergraph computer was so expensive that they had 3 shifts > > operating it 24 hours a day. > > > > Around 1995 we shared the formula with Kevin Kimmel and Mark Lentocha > > of FPE Software, who where our business partners at that time. > > As far as I know FPE never used it. > > > > In our office we still use the formula almost every day. It is > > embedded in a spreadsheet program. > > We think it is too tricky to embed it in a commercial program, > > because the user must be very well trained to distinguish in which > > cases the formula can be used and when not. Actually it works for > > standard tree type deluge, waterspray and sprinkler systems only. > > When sold as a program it will probably generate a lot of helpdesk > > requests. That's why we didn't market it. > > > > Today's computers are so fast that it makes hardly any difference if > > you calculate with iteration (= with assumptions) > > or single run only using the normal pressure integral. > > > > Frans Stoop > > TOS architecture & fire protection > > Netherlands <[email protected]> > > Tel. +31-24-324 0112 > > > > At 13:24 23-11-2009 -0500, you wrote: > > >Actually, I believe a newbie to the industry with a really smart father has > > >developed a method to NOT make assumptions, but use his formula to simply > > >plug in your values and go. I believe it will be released soon, once > > >marketing determines how to make a buck on it. > > > > > >Glc > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: [email protected] > > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland > > >Huggins > > >Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 12:30 PM > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: Re: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16 > > > > > >I did an article on it a long time ago (around the time that NFPA 15 > > >started requiring it). I'll see if I can put my hands on an > > >electronic copy and email it to you. > > > > > >If memory serves me correctly, the challenging part is noting that you > > >have to make an initial ASSUMPTION on how much is flowing out of the > > >sprinkler since the velocity and flow is calculated for the pipe > > >section upstream from the sprinkler, you then modify your initial > > >assumption for the final result (like when using the Hardy-Cross > > >method for calculating multiple loops by hand though it's a bit more > > >work). > > > > > >Roland > > > > > >On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:04 PM, Miguel A. Lopez wrote: > > > > > > > I am trying to learn how to manually calculate a sprinkler system > > > > using the > > > > velocity pressure method for the NICET exam, I took a webminar on the > > > > subject, but it did not workout for me, I still confuse with the > > > > method. > > > > Will someone recommends me a book that will help me? > > > > Please respond to my E-Mail address [email protected] > > > > I want to thank you in advance for your time and consideration > > > > Miguel A. Lopez > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > [email protected] > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 10:20 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16 > > > > > > > > Send Sprinklerforum mailing list submissions to > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > > than "Re: Contents of Sprinklerforum digest..." > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > > to:[email protected] > > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
