"If DOE doesn't even", that's funny because the rest of the alphabet soup of gov't entities seem to require. I guess that's the difference of DOE actually thinking a problem through vs. the other automatons?
I think we are in agreement using a device to create a hole in poured concrete is a good idea from a construction cost aspect. I hesitate to call it a sleeve as we are talking about form work more so than a traditional sleeve. Pull the form (sleeve) after the concrete cure and all should be good. I think there is another area of agreement in bearing walls, usually of block construction, on a case by case basis. There are cases where the sleeve is for structural reasons. Although I am suspect of a 2" hole for an 1.5" pipe passing is a detriment to a block wall. I'm also suspect as the sleeve provides nothing structurally unless the O.D. matches the hole in the wall exactly or the grout is of a proper specification and depth to match the missing materials. If it was that important to structural stability I'd imagine core testing of the grout which I don't see. Best I can tell I can't find common drill bits that match the O.D. of any pipe. I imagine for the right price I can get one in any size. But I'm not a SE and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night. I haven't heard in all other walls any substantial reason. The fire rating isn't a reason for generic all walls sleeved spec. Perhaps 20 years ago this was the common rating solution but I seriously doubt sleeves today are the only way to fire stop a wall. EQ issues I'll leave alone as I can't spell ground move all on it's own. The craftsmanship of some contractors is an excuse not a reason IMHO, some may disagree. In the end there might be a case or two legitimate reasons but the all always from your average A&E is a little suspect. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Law, Kevin W Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Sleeve On our project here we are not requiring sleeves in gyp-board walls for pipe passing through, even on rated walls. Only that the annular space be sealed using an approved/listed rated penetration seal to maintain the integrity of the wall. If DOE doesn't even require it I don't know whay anyone else would. Kevin Law, PE Bechtel National, Inc. Waste Treatment Project Fire Protection Engineering Work (509) 371-3280 Cell (509) 531-5715 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Sleeve For non-concrete walls the solid surface is between the sleeve and the pipe. The sleeve seals the gap between wall material between the studs. Is there a need for a sleeve in a frangible wall, depends on conditions, is the wall rated, are there other issues? Is one needed, ask the architect or person specifying the sleeve for the reason if it's a major issue or concern. Hopefully they're not just putting in the requirement for the fun of it. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Sleeve John, that didn't really answer my question; but it is a good point. To that: the sleeve will support the masonry construction so that it doesn't end up bearing on the pipe in the event of shifting or settling. Certainly in seismic areas this would be even more important. I can grasp that concept. So let's talk about horizontal penetrations in non-masonry, non concrete walls. What forms the 'solid interior surface' between the wall and the sleeve? Why can't this be done without out a sleeve? Or is there even a need for horizontal sleeves in non-masonry/concrete construction? Mark A. Sornsin, PE | Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc. |Fargo, ND Direct: 701. 280.8591 | www.ulteig.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 6:45 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Sleeve Mark, You are correct, in masonry construction the sleeve is used in the same fashion as a lintel, to provide support to the construction. John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 3:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Sleeve (o.k. I know I'm going to regret asking this - but I have no shame) What provides the solid interior surface when a sleeve penetrates a block or stud wall? _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
