Rahe, Got it. Thanks.
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 8:39 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Ron, > Go to Google. Click on "more". > Type in "hydraulic tables". Scroll down to "hydraulic tables: the elements of > gagings and the friction of ...". Click on title and the book will come up > starting with the contents. On the far right side click on "PDF". It will > ask you to type the weird characters you see then click "submit". Then click > save to save entire book to a folder of your choice. > > > > Rahe Loftin > Sent from my Blackberry > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ron Greenman [[email protected]] > Sent: 12/29/2010 08:13 AM PST > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: USACE Velocity > > > > Do you have a link? I'm being (L)azy today as I'm on (b)reak and it > (s)nowed. The RG equation is 1b + 1s = 3L > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> Todd, >> Nothing is "snuck" in and there is definitely no entrapment. It is in plain >> English in the spec. It is the contractor's responsibility to read all of >> the specification and ask for any clarification that he thinks is needed. A >> clarification or amendment for one also for all bidders. >> >> Quite frankly, it does help to clarify the reasoning, on this forum, behind >> some of the requirements. I like open discussions such as these. However, >> always remember that the spec is a contract document regardless of what it >> requires no matter how ridiculous it may seem. Everybody bids the same set >> of contract documents. >> >> By the way, Hazen-Williams is not all some believe it is. It works fairly >> well with water based sprinkler systems as long as it is applied correctly. >> New sprinkler systems with reasonable flows, pressures, velocities, and >> temperatures will do OK with H-W. >> >> One example is working with aged versus new pipe. There is no clear cut >> methodology to compensate for the added roughage other than lowering the >> C-factor. Once you try to get below C=100 you are in no man's land. I >> suggest that everyone reads the original works of H&W and see for >> themselves. It is free on Google Books as the copyright has expired. >> >> >> >> Rahe Loftin >> Sent from my Blackberry >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Todd Williams [[email protected]] >> Sent: 12/29/2010 10:39 AM EST >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: USACE Velocity >> >> >> >> If you want a safety factor in the design include ONE plainly stated safety >> factor and be done with it. They all typically accomplish the same thing, so >> keep it simple. Unless you are trying to trip up contractors in the bidding >> process to keep the prices down, there is no reason to do sneak all of this >> little stuff in a spec. >> >> At 09:57 AM 12/29/2010, you wrote: >>> >>> One last thing to note about the velocity restrictions: their use helps to >>> continue the myth throughout engineering circles that they are a necessity. >>> I am certain most engineers who see a GSA spec with the velocity >>> restrictions aren't thinking it is there merely to give a larger safety >>> factor. Instead they are thinking things like :'high velocity is bad for >>> pipes'; 'it is too noisy'; 'the H-W equation is invalid at high velocities', >>> etc. So they continue to keep it within THEIR specs, which are seen by other >>> engineers and AHJs - and the myths of velocity restrictions continue. >>> >>> And if there is a desire to keep the restrictions in place strictly for >>> the more robust design, then please explain it in the specs, so the myths >>> aren't promulgated. 'As an additional safety factor, all pipe velocities >>> shall be limited...' At least then if the design goes awry the >>> designer/engineer can come back and explain why the restriction should be >>> lifted for their particular case. >>> >>> Mark A. Sornsin, PE | Fire Protection Engineer >>> Ulteig Engineers, Inc. |Fargo, ND >>> Direct: 701. 280.8591 | www.ulteig.com >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 5:40 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: USACE Velocity >>> >>> Given your argument maybe the oversized main/velocity restriction is >>> just a simpler way to get desired results in most cases but your >>> example points to the less than most cases and is valid. And maybe a >>> simple way to beat the devil isn't any more warranted than designing >>> to the extreme least costly. Comes back to the fact that some projects >>> are less critical than others and lend themselves to the low bid at >>> any cost philosophy, some have higher goals that can be dealt with by >>> using rule of thumb requirements, and some are so high value that >>> neither approach works, but since each project is unique until >>> defined. Each has to be analyzed and assessed, the cost of that >>> assessment being commensurate with the benefit of paying for it.Mark's >>> example requires a lot of value engineering to avoid very high >>> unnecessary costs, a strip mall or the latest Meth Lab Manor apartment >>> complex needs to be low-balled, while most projects may be somewhere >>> in between. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> Todd G. Williams, PE >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> Stonington, CT >> 860.535.2080 >> www.fpdc.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
