Stewart, I laboured over this posting. I wanted to colour it appropriately. Mr. Boswel(l) in particular was taxing. The double L spelling did not look proper, but neither did the single. A conundrum. Perhaps I should have dropped him from my list but I wanted someone known to be as punctilious a wordsmith as he. I would have chosen Mr. Churchill except for all those other minor things he did that would tend to muddy my point. I chose poorly. Now if you don't mind, as George pointed out I'm tired from standing, so I'll sit corrected. One learns a lot being in error.
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:58 PM, Stewart Kidd <[email protected]> wrote: > Tut, tut, Ron ! > > Boswell has two 'll's' ! > > (Dr Johnson wuld not mind - his spelin wos atroshious) > > Stewart (MA and MSc) > > > On 31 Jan 2011, at 00:28, Ron Greenman wrote: > >> John, >> >> Not at all. I believe I asked for your further input regarding my comments. >> To stand corrected is to admit learning in the face of preconceived notions. >> The learning is good for us unwashed, the validation let's you know that >> your efforts are appreciated, and the suggested lesson for the egotists is >> pretty clear, though it may escape them due to their nature. If any >> apologies are required it's from the developers of this form of >> communication wherein there is no place for even inflection. Were that we >> were all Voltaire, Twain, or Faulkner and there'd be no misunderstandings of >> this kind. But, alas, the art of letter writing is long dead. Modern Boswels >> compiling the emails of even famous scientists could easily title the work >> "The Collected Grocery Lists of Dr. X." When it cost a man a week's pay to >> send a letter because it absolutely, positively had to get there in a couple >> of months folks were a little more erudite. I believe I'm near the last >> graduating class where penmanship, spelling, punctuation, and an adherence >> to grammar were necessary for the educated man. The term for an educated >> person used to be knowledge of Arts, Letters and the Sciences. >> >> Ron Greenman >> ...On the phone >> >> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:11 PM, "John Drucker" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Ron, >>> >>> Didn't mean for it to come across that way, just trying to help out >>> >>> John >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman >>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:08 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Electrical Rooms-Dedicated Equipment Space, Sprinklers and IBC >>> Exemptions >>> >>> I stand corrected. Although I haven't spent enough time with this to >>> know how corrected I've been but there's enough easily assimilable to >>> know I've been at least somewhat corrected. Thank you once again. >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:49 AM, John Drucker <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> Fear not for the answer you seek is found in the code >>>> ...............Emphasis in CAPS >>>> >>>> 2008 NFPA-70 (NEC) >>>> >>>> 110.26(F) Dedicated Equipment Space. >>>> "All SWITCHBOARDS, PANELBOARDS, DISTRIBUTION BOARDS, AND MOTOR CONTROL >>>> CENTERS shall be located in dedicated spaces and protected from damage." >>>> >>>> Article 100 Definitions >>>> >>>> Motor Control Center. An assembly of one or more enclosed sections having >>> a >>>> common power bus and PRINCIPALLY CONTAINING MOTOR CONTROL UNITS. >>>> >>>> Panelboard. A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly >>> in >>>> the form of a single panel, including buses and automatic overcurrent >>>> devices, and equipped with or without switches FOR THE CONTROL OF LIGHT, >>>> HEAT, OR POWER CIRCUITS; designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box >>>> placed in or against a wall, partition, or other support, and ACCESSIBLE >>>> ONLY FROM THE FRONT. >>>> >>>> Switchboard. A large single panel, frame, or assembly of panels on which >>> are >>>> mounted on the face, back, or both, SWITCHES, OVERCURRENT AND OTHER >>>> PROTECTIVE DEVICES, BUSES, and usually instruments. Switchboards are >>>> GENERALLY ACCESSIBLE FROM THE REAR AS WELL as from the front and are not >>>> intended to be installed in cabinets. >>>> >>>> No definition for Distribution Boards......let's see if another article >>>> provides the answer.......... >>>> >>>> 408.1 Scope. “This article covers the following: (1) All switchboards, >>>> panelboards, and DISTRIBUTION BOARDS INSTALLED FOR THE CONTROL OF LIGHT >>> AND >>>> POWER CIRCUITS.” >>>> >>>> 90.3 Code Arrangement. “This Code is divided into the introduction and >>> nine >>>> chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3. CHAPTERS 1, 2, 3, AND 4 APPLY >>> GENERALLY.” >>>> >>>> And last but not least, an online resource with descriptions, photos, etc >>> of >>>> panelboards, distribution boards from NEMA >>>> >>>> http://www.nema.org/prod/be/lvde/panelboard/enclose-pd/ >>>> >>>> Hope this helps, >>>> >>>> John Drucker, CET >>>> Fire Protection Subcode Official >>>> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >>>> Fire Marshals Office >>>> Borough of Red Bank, NJ >>>> >>>> Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or >>>> otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and >>> approvals >>>> from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron >>> Greenman >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 11:07 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: Electrical Rooms-Dedicated Equipment Space, Sprinklers and >>> IBC >>>> Exemptions >>>> >>>> Brad, >>>> >>>> I'll defer to John if he calls me on this, but I don't think those >>>> little electrical closets with a single lighting/general purpose >>>> sub-panel, a mop sink, and the custodian's collection of porn really >>>> count at all, and certainly not for sprinklers. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:01 AM, Brad Casterline >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> It always does help, John, thanks, far more than 'stay out of the air >>>>> space'...). I wanted to add for Brian's sake of the original post- it >>>>> sounded like he had the many small electrical closets in mind- I offset >>>>> around them and stub in a sidewall on my way by. I consider them OHI, and >>>> so >>>>> I can use standard response, intermediate temp. For the big elect. rooms, >>>>> (and elevator equipment) I go in once and never come out :) >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: John Drucker [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:37 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: FW: Electrical Rooms-Dedicated Equipment Space,Sprinklers and >>> IBC >>>>> Exemptions >>>>> >>>>> Members, >>>>> >>>>> Sprinkler piping is permitted in and through electrical rooms with two >>>>> provisions, first the piping cannot be located in the dedicated >>> electrical >>>>> space, and second watersheds or other protective devices must be provided >>>>> for electrical equipment below when piping is located above the dedicated >>>>> electrical space. >>>>> >>>>> The National Electrical Code (NEC) does not prohibit the installation of >>>>> fire sprinklers in electrical rooms, the 2006 and 2009 Editions of the >>> IBC >>>>> reinforce the sprinkler requirements; >>>>> >>>>> 903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations. "Automatic sprinklers shall not be required >>>> in >>>>> the following rooms or areas where such rooms or areas are protected with >>>> an >>>>> approved automatic fire detection system in accordance with Section 907.2 >>>>> that will respond to visible or invisible particles of combustion. >>>>> SPRINKLERS SHALL NOT BE OMITTED FROM ANY ROOM MERELY BECAUSE IT is damp, >>>> of >>>>> fire-resistance-rated construction OR CONTAINS ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT." >>>>> >>>>> However the 2006 and 2009 IBC provides the following sprinkler exemption >>>> for >>>>> separated and detected GENERATOR AND TRANSFORMER rooms; >>>>> >>>>> 903.3.1.1. - 3. "GENERATOR AND TRANSFORMER ROOMS separated from the >>>>> remainder of the building by walls and floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling >>>>> assemblies having a fire-resistance rating of NOT LESS THAN 2 HOURS." >>>>> >>>>> Keep in mind where this exemption is utilized a fire alarm system >>> pursuant >>>>> to 907.2 utilizing smoke detectors located in the generator and or >>>>> transformer room(s) must be installed which means the space must be >>>> suitable >>>>> for smoke detectors in accordance with the products listing and NFPA-72. >>>>> >>>>> Hope this helps, >>>>> >>>>> John Drucker, CET >>>>> Fire Protection Subcode Official >>>>> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >>>>> >>>>> Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or >>>>> otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and >>>> approvals >>>>> from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 7:55 PM >>>>> Subject: RE: Electrical Rooms >>>>> >>>>> 2008 NFPA-70 (NEC) 110.26(F) >>>>> >>>>> (F) Dedicated Equipment Space. All switchboards, panelboards, >>> distribution >>>>> boards, and motor control centers shall be located in dedicated spaces >>> and >>>>> protected from damage. >>>>> >>>>> (1) Indoor. Indoor installations shall comply with 110.26(F)(1)(a) >>> through >>>>> (F)(1)(d). >>>>> >>>>> (a) Dedicated Electrical Space. The space equal to the width and depth of >>>>> the equipment and extending from the floor to a height of 1.8 m (6 ft) >>>> above >>>>> the equipment or to the structural ceiling, whichever is lower, shall be >>>>> dedicated to the electrical installation. No piping, ducts, leak >>>> protection >>>>> apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation >>> shall >>>>> be located in this zone. >>>>> >>>>> Exception: Suspended ceilings with removable panels shall be permitted >>>>> within the 1.8-m (6-ft) zone. >>>>> >>>>> (b) Foreign Systems. The AREA ABOVE THE DEDICATED SPACE required by >>>>> 110.26(F)(1)(a) SHALL BE PERMITTED TO CONTAIN FOREIGN SYSTEMS, provided >>>>> PROTECTION IS INSTALLED to >>>>> avoid damage to the electrical equipment from condensation, LEAKS, OR >>>> BREAKS >>>>> IN SUCH FOREIGN SYSTEMS. >>>>> >>>>> (c) Sprinkler Protection. Sprinkler PROTECTION shall be permitted for the >>>>> dedicated space where the piping complies with this section. >>>>> >>>>> (d) Suspended Ceilings. A dropped, suspended, or similar ceiling that >>> does >>>>> not add strength to the building structure shall not be considered a >>>>> structural ceiling. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In other words the dedicated equipment space is a three dimensional >>>>> exclusion zone above and around switchboards, panelboards, distribution >>>>> boards, and motor control centers which is reserved for electrical wiring >>>>> only. The space begins at the floor, the width and depth of the equipment >>>>> and to a height of 6ft above the equipment or to the STRUCTURAL ceiling >>>>> whichever is LOWER. So keep out unless you're the electrician. >>>>> >>>>> Take heed of (C), the operative term is PROTECTION not PIPING. So you can >>>>> spray water in the dedicated space, just don't run the pipe in there. >>>>> >>>>> Hope this helps, >>>>> >>>>> John Drucker, CET >>>>> Fire Protection Subcode Official >>>>> Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector >>>>> >>>>> Not the official position of any agency, association, committee or >>>>> otherwise. Obtain required applications, permits, inspections and >>>> approvals >>>>> from Authority(s) Having Jurisdiction. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>> >>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>>> >>>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ron Greenman >>>> Instructor >>>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>>> Bates Technical College >>>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>>> >>>> 253.680.7346 >>>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>>> >>>> Member: >>>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >>>> >>>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>>> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ron Greenman >>> Instructor >>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >>> Bates Technical College >>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >>> Tacoma, WA 98405 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >>> >>> 253.680.7346 >>> 253.576.9700 (cell) >>> >>> Member: >>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >>> >>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >>> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
