With the new TIA, is antifreeze allowed in dwelling units at these lower concentrations?
Trying to settle a discussion. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC www.mfpdesign.com Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Art Tiroly" <atir...@atcofirepro.com> Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:59:02 To: <sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org>; <fpech...@embarqmail.com> Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions And when ice forms there will be no sprinkler flow even though the pipe may not burst. Arthur Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection Design Tiroly and Associates 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 Cell WWW.ATCOfirepro.com <http://www.atcofirepro.com/> _____ From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 12:48 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: antifreeze solutions Very true but NFPA to my knowledge has not told us which temperature to use. I'd also suggest you get some dry ice and cool some down to the ice point. It becomes the consistency of a milk shake. It may not break the pipe but I have my doubts about how long it takes to clear out and allow water to pass. True, the time would be dependent on the volume and pressure. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Matt Mueller <m...@metrofp.com> Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:26:57 To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'<sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org> Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions Has anyone looked at the manufactures guidelines before panicking on the "northern extremes" of cold? The most common antifreeze premix that we use is Firefighter PG premix. This to my knowledge is perfectly acceptable to the new standard. When tested by a hydrometer, this tests to -15 degrees Fahrenheit. Bad right? Wrong. This reading tells when ice crystals begin to form, NOT the point where it expands enough to burst steel pipe. Noble Co. documents in the product literature that when the freeze point is tested 0 deg., the burst point of their product is -50 deg. Fahrenheit. This puts the burst point issue WELL up into northern Canada according to the isothermic map used by NFPA. It's also safe to assume that if tested at -15, that the burst point is lessened as well. Older documentation I had seen from the same company also listed a temprature in which the product would continue to flow, which was somewhere in between the two, but it looks as if that's been taken off the documents. Matthew Mueller Metropolitan Fire Protection 175 Gordon St Elk Grove Village Illinois, 60007 P 847.758.9820 F 847.758.9822 C 847.602.3576 -----Original Message----- From: Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo [mailto:prodesigngr...@msn.com] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:56 PM To: FORUM Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions Joe, You said, "Some homes have no options but antifreeze." That's absolutely not true. With construction techniques and now with dry residential, you can protect any home with sprinklers and you can do it affordably. Do the right thing here. The right thing is not to put an antifreeze solution in that has the potential to hurt them. Let's all remember that while it is absolutely our job to make money doing what we do, this industry requires that we also have the ethics to do the right thing while we make that money. Work with your customers to do the right thing. Sure, you could offer to help them on pricing (the market is gonna make you do that right now anyway....) and you could explain some of the things that have happened. Even UL wasn't ready for the results they encountered. NFPA is helping you out here. They are giving you someone to point to and say, "y'know... I followed their codes and now they say that it isn't good enough." And you can say, "You're lucky that we are your fire protection contractor and that we know about this. We'll help you avoid a potentially indescribable problem by changing your system out." Doing the right thing has always been a tough pill to swallow. But it is what we must do in our industry. And if your relationship is what you want it to be with your clients, they will know that you are doing the right thing. It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL 217.607.0325 www.sprinkleracademy.com ce...@sprinkleracademy.com OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!! > From: j...@burtellfire.com > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:19:43 -0600 > > This is my point, I have long term customers/clients, all of a sudden > the systems I installed are no longer safe and you Mr. Owner are going > to have to replace them at your expense. I have parking garages, > custom homes worth millions, hotels that cannot just be easily > changed. Some homes have no options but antifreeze. Am I supposed to > tell them I'm sorry but I can't help you and now they are on their > own. This is where NFPA screwed all of us and the pooch. Enough about this, I'll step off my soap box. > > Joe Burtell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron > Greenman > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:19 AM > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: antifreeze solutions > > There are always more than one alternative. After 911 three solutions > to the problem of planes hitting buildings that were proposed were > hardening all tall buildings, bridges, etc., Homeland Security, and > invading Afghanistan and tracking down the bad guys. Other > alternatives were ground all airplane permanently, racially profile > and expel all Muslims or apparent Muslims, and any other number of > impracticable, expensive, and illegal solutions. A couple expensive > ones (Homeland Security and war) were tried with to now successful > results (no recurring 911 type incident ). I can think of lots of > expensive solutions to existing systems and several less expensive > solutions to future systems. The upping the anti-freeze to above code > limits could be construed as "illegal" and if you knowingly do so then > I'd suspect you would be liable. If you tell the owner what percentage > of anti freeze he needs, what type, and where to get it, with the > caveat that you don't recommend he do this, that is non-code > compliant, and then get that statement that says you explained > everything to him, , suggested he not do the wrong thing, refused to > do the wrong thing yourself, and then it's all on him to decide if that's the alternative he wants to pursue. Or, and I'm sure at great expense, get all the piping within the heated envelope. > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Joe Burtell <j...@burtellfire.com> wrote: > > The problem is, you know there is no alternative but to refresh any > > system in my area to 60% glycerin even though I know it is not what > > NFPA > 25 says. > > That will put me on the hook even though I inform the owner and have > > them sign something that they understand. Now how is that a good solution? > > > > Joe Burtell > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > > George Church > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:30 AM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > The responsibility is on the building OWNER, not you. > > I don't argue the point you may look stupid :) but the situation can > > be > > explained: > > Excessive concentrations of AF have been discovered to cause > > explosions and kill people. > > We haven't got an answer yet. > > Most owners understand that. > > Just as we have nuke plants creating waste that in a generation or > > more, we have yet to address longterm as a nation. > > How did you expect NFPA to develop an alternative solution- they > > aren't DuPont. > > > > George Church > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > g...@rowesprinkler.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Joe > > Burtell > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:15 AM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > Ya, maybe back in 2001 they could have addressed the issue when it > > first had a incident. I don't disagree with the problem, just the > > solution. The limits do not work for any systems in the states we > > work. What kind of a solution is find an alternative system? Does > > not solve the problem and leaves me looking like the stupid one. > > NFPA needs to do 100% better for existing systems. They leave me > > hanging with > all the liability. > > > > Joe Burtell > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > > George Church > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:05 AM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > Could NFPA have done anything but respond quickly and thoroughly to > > sprinkler systems causing explosions and deaths? > > I'm just thankful the NAHB didn't pick it up and run with it in our > > current battle for the IRC mandate in PA. > > > > George Church > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > g...@rowesprinkler.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Joe > > Burtell > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:00 AM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; cwmckni...@yahoo.com > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > I am not aware of any such product. I heard a rumor Lubrizol was > > working on something. I would like to thank NFPA for making such a > > mess out of this anti-freeze issue. What am I supposed to tell the > > owner when he asks me who is going to pay for this on existing systems? > > > > Joe Burtell > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > > Charles McKnight > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:38 AM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: antifreeze solutions > > > > With the new TIA's being issued on NFPA 25 concerning the allowable > > concentrations of the standard propylene glycol or glycerin only > > being able to protect down to -6 or -19 a problem now exists for the > > northern areas where the temperatures are know to reach below the limit. > > Thus my question: Does anyone know of a product that will meet the > > NFPA requirements for use as an antifreeze solution that is also > > classified as nontoxic and nonflammable? > > > > Thanks for any help > > > > Charles McKnight > > Battelle Energy Alliance > > Idaho Falls, Idaho > > > > ps: This is my second try to send this to the list so I hope you > > only see it once. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _____ No virus found in this message. 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