As per NFPA 25 the contractor is NOT RESPONSIBLE to DIAGNOSE DESIGN DEFICIENCIES that IS THE OWNER'S responsibility. NFPA 25 is written in a way to limit the sprinkler contractor's liability if the contractor follows the inspection testing and maintenance procedures as outlined in NFPA 25. I am surprised that sprinkler contractors keep trying to take on more and more liability by trying to be all things to all clients. At some point your liability insurance carrier might say "you are practicing engineering and we are not covering you for "Errors and Omissions". This just happened in New Jersey with a Mechanical Contractor who was installing fire sprinkler systems, was sued by an owner. The insurance company reviewed his application for liability insurance coverage and found that the contractor did not inform the insurance company that the contractor was installing sprinkler systems, the insurance company tried to decline coverage as the case was winding its way through the court system.
If you think there is a problem with the standpipe system express your concerns to your client in a separate letter not related to your inspection survey report. Make it very clear in your letter that you are only expressing your opinion and that the Owner needs to get a qualified Professional engineer to assist the owner in the review. For more info go to Top Myers' RelMark's web site www.relmark.net and review the court cases. Have a fire safe New Year!! Regards Jim Jim Davidson Davidson Associates Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting 302-994-9500 Fax:302-234-1781 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 3:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: NFPA 25 standpipe test But it is required in the new edition and there is an inference in the standards and generally an expectation of due diligence in prosecuting one's work both under 25 and in general. 25 has left a bit of a void regarding the contractor's responsibility to diagnose design deficiencies (not required and the remedy for deficiencies clearly being outside the scope) and general deficiencies (implied to be within the scope), and it doesn't contain any reference to having multiple design bases in the same building or system. The contractor is not responsible for the design but needs to test according to what's there (I'm paraphrasing) but if there is incongruence at any level you have to use your best judgment. I would seize this opportunity to flow test the systems, catalog their performance potential and sign the FDC's as such. To Roland and Jim's comments, I think Meridian One has drawn attention to this issue; in the case of SFFD they have been trying to fight fires on super-steep hills since before the turn of the 20th century. That FD has been very progressive on standpipes because they have to be - you can't park an engine closer than a block away from many buildings in that city and pumping up hill as well as up the building to firefighters is the norm there, so they are very sensitive to hose-end pressures. Meridian One - especially the USFA report that followed - has given us push forward in advocating higher working pressures and amending 14 to allow performance based designs for both primary and secondary water supplies. As for pipe dreams, ask the firefighters who are expected to go into that building if knowing what their water supply will be is a pipe dream. Time to raise the bar of expectations and I have had more than one emphatic conversation with a building owner on that subject. Tell them to put a big sign on the FDC instead that says, "Attention Responders: We do not know what residual pressures you will have at the Class 1 standpipe connections in this building. Proceed with caution." My opinion only, Steve Leyton -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 8:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: NFPA 25 standpipe test One more piece of information to ponder...If the standpipe system is designed as a manual wet standpipe, the 5 year flow test is not required per NFPA 25:6.3.1 2008 ed. The flow test is only required for automatic standpipe systems. Not sure if this applies to your situation? Duane Johnson, PE Program Manager Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research Services National Institutes of Health 301-496-0487 "Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time" -----Original Message----- From: Todd Williams [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 10:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: NFPA 25 standpipe test Steve, That's a great pipe dream and would work well in a place as sophisticated as SF or LA, but this is a small city hospital. This AHJ's response to everything (besides 'what do you want in your coffee') is to do it per NFPA. Cooperation and coordination are probably going to minimal. I can't even verify right now if a proper standpipe acceptance test was done when the system was installed. So far, they, the owner, the insurance company and whatever agency the reports have been sent to has accepted the 9 single standpipe tests at 65 psi with max water flowing about 600 gpm, back to at least 2000. That is going to require re-education on a massive scale with little, if any compensation for it. This is not a project I am involved with. I am just answering a question from a client regarding a letter the insurance company asked for. At 09:43 PM 12/29/2011, Steve Leyton wrote: >I was trying to stay away, I really was, but Geo's e-mail is a great segue ... > >It is a great time to see what the system(s) will actually produce at different inlet pressures. And to add signage to the FDC(s) that tell the responding engineer what to pump in order to get whatever GPM and PSI are to be delivered at the referenced outlets. If you have both 65psi and 100psi era Class I standpipes, you can definitely work with the AHJ to come up with a mutually satisfactory methodology for testing and performance. Verify with the AHJ what types of nozzles or tips they use or carry for attack lines what the minimum good working pressure is for each. If the systems are built with standard weight fittings and valves, then see what you can get out of the remote standpipe at 175psi inlet pressure and call it a day, unless the performance is so grossly inadequate as to cause concern for the AHJ, in which case you have what is known in technical terms as a SNAFU. > >As an example of how at least one FD has grown to address this wide range of standpipe performance (sometimes in the same building), City of San Franciso trucks and engines carry three different types of tips. If the ones fitting to the hose packs aren't right for a particular fire, they can go all the way down to low pressure smooth bore or straight stream. But it starts with knowing what's gonna come out and the signage is now a prescriptive requirement of both 13 and 14, and which can be easily retrofitted. > >SML > >________________________________ > >From: [email protected] on behalf of George >Church >Sent: Thu 12/29/2011 12:26 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: NFPA 25 standpipe test > > > >Todd- >If the intent of NFPA 25 and this test is to confirm the stuff actually >works, it might be a great time to find out what the pipe scheduled standpipes will produce- Better to know soon, rather than find out when there's a fire in an unsprinklered area (since that's the same area where these old standpipes will be, Murphy's Law of Cascading Catastrophes) what the FD can expect to get out of these, and if they blow apart or not. > > >George L. Church, Jr., CET >Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. >PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 >877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax >[email protected] > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams >Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 2:59 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: NFPA 25 standpipe test > >Exactly what I am dealing with. Quite honestly, if I saw something that said flow the most remote hose outlet, I would only flow one outlet at 250 gpm. I would not from that surmise that they wanted to recreate an acceptance test, if one was ever done. The hospital dates from at least 1912, although I don't know when each section was built. There was a major expansion in 2005 when they added a second fire pump and increase the area by about 40%. > >So would the correct procedure be to go through and date each standpipe and figure out how each was sized. Those that are pipe schedule could be left alone, the pre 1993 need to be tested to 1250 gpm (partially sprinklered) and 65 psi at the top outlet and those from 2005 tested at 1000 gpm (fully sprinklered) at 100 psi? > >Is there anything other than handbook commentary that details exact testing procedures? We are using 2002 standards. > > > >At 10:12 AM 12/29/2011, you wrote: >>The confusion started when 25 said flow the most remote hose >>connection. Some focused on the fact that it used the singular tense >>verses plural so obviously they only had to flow from ONE outlet and >>since an outlet only has to flow 250 gpm THAT was the amount to flow >>for the test. DOH! >> >>Roland >> >>On Dec 29, 2011, at 6:14 AM, Todd Williams wrote: >> >>>I am working with a hospital with a total of 9 standpipes. There are >>>standpipes that are both pre and post 1993. The original building is >>>partially sprinklered and the new section is fully sprinklered. >>> >>>1. Is the intent of NFPA 25 that multiple standpipes be flowed >>>simultaneously to meet the 1250 gpm demand? >>> >>>2. Should the two sections of the hospital be flow independent of each >>>other? >>> >>>3. If yes to 1 and 2, could the new section be flowed as a fully >>>sprinklered building (thus 1000 gpm) as opposed to 1250? >>> >>>4. How should i handle pipe schedule standpipes, if any exist? >>> >>>I haven't had to deal with 5 year standpipe tests before. >>> >>>Todd G. Williams, PE >>>Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>>Stonington, CT >>>860.535.2080 >>>www.fpdc.com >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>[email protected] >>>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>[email protected] >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, CT >860.535.2080 >www.fpdc.com > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attach ments/20111229/accee849/attachment.html> >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
