I think the real point here is that even at fairly well run refineries and similar petrochemical facilities fires happen. These commonly result in horrible deaths for employees. The design of systems is a complicated business that needs to be taken seriously.
The public expects that part of the ethical responsibility of being a professional engineer is knowing when a project is beyond the engineers current level of expertise to take the lead. Find someone with experience and take the opportunity to learn during this project. Much of the fire sprinkler work that is discussed on this list is done by tech level designers. If you do tech level work you have a duty to recognize when you have crossed from prescriptive tech level design to engineering and seek responsible engineering supervision for that part of a project or walk away. Bruce Verhei ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Prahl" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 8:36:34 AM Subject: RE: - These flares are typically part of a thermal oxidizer system which will be a piece of equipment. So based on the hazardous nature of the equipment it would be prudent to provide firefighting means by providing the fire water ring with either fixed monitors or hydrants or a combination of both. There would not be any guidance within NFPA Standards for this type of issue. NFPA Standards do not specifically address requirements for process equipment. You can look to other recognized industry standards for guidance on how to deal with the hazard. Resources such as FM Global for instance has a Data Sheet on Fume Incinerators as well as other Data Sheets on various topics related to industrial hazards. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of László Csonka Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 9:36 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: - O.K. I tell the story. We have to design a very high flare, approximately 100 meter high, the radius of the flare area it's about 500 meter. We assumed that in this area the temperature of the earth is about 70 °C. In this area, there won't be any building or structure, olny the flare. The questions: Can I consider it an unbuilt area? If I can, it means that I shall not provide the fire water ring? There is any code or standard in the NFPA what confirm this statement? Regards, L. 2013/7/19 Hinson, Ryan <[email protected]> > I'd caution you that the document you referenced below appears to be a > marketing tool for a specific software for analysis of pipe systems. > Far more is involved in the design of a system such as this than > software used to perform hydraulic calculations. How do you know you > need a certain amount of water, as a certain pressure, and where? > What about foam? Prior to pipe sizing calculations, the design > requires determination of the fire protection requirements, chosen > appurtenances or system types to meet those requirements, and the > placement of such appurtenances or systems required based on > prescriptive code requirements and performance based decisions > established from fire and hazard analyses of the facility. After > that, the water source required to meet maximum flow and pressure > requirements must be determined. > - How large do the pumps need to be? > - Do you need multiple pumps? > - What is the necessary water duration? > - and that is just some of what is necessary for water requirements. > - The list of questions needing answers and necessary research to be > done to complete the overall system design goes far beyond what can be > put in an email. > > Ryan Hinson > Burns & McDonnell > Direct: 952-656-3662 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of László > Csonka > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: - > > Hi! > > Thank you so much the answers! Especially thank it for Ryan Hinson! > > I know the API relating standards, but I wasn't sure that theres is a > special code for the fire water ring network design. > > I searched in the internet the standards or any requirement what is > used for the design and I found this: > > http://cholarisk.com/uploads/Fire-Hydrant-Network-Analysis.pdf > > This document isn't mention any NFPA code just in the reference there > are some handbooks. > > There was a question about the country. Sorry, but I can't tell it. I > only can say that this refinery located in the Middle East and I live > in East Central Europe, not from Polad or Czech Republic. > > Here in East Central Europe the level of the fire protection is not as > high as in the US. The clients wants to ensure the same safety lelel > so the the common practice is when they said everythnig have to desig > with usage of NFPA standards and codes. The authorities in this > country allways approved this solutiion, because they know that the > NFPA is "better" than the national regulations. > > The last question asked what is my job. I'm fire safety designer at a > designing company. > > I hope that I was clear. > > *László **Csonka* > fire safety expert > [email protected] > > > > > > 2013/7/19 Ed Vining <[email protected]> > > > Lazlo, it is not clear whether you are an engineer or an installing > > contractor. If you were either in the US I would recommend that you > > contact your insurance carrier to see if this type of project is > > within the scope of your insurance policy. In this country the > > owner would design the system or with the aid of a registered fire > > protection > engineering firm. > > > > Ed Vining > > 4819 John Muir Rd > > Martinez CA 94553 > > 925-228-8792 > > Cell 925-787-0465 > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Ron Greenman > > <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > May I ask what country? > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Hinson, Ryan > > > <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > As Craig said, this is a significant undertaking with multiple > > > > factors that need to be considered in the design. > > > > > > > > Has a hazard analysis been performed for the facility or portion > > thereof > > > > which is within your scope of work? The American Petroleum > > > > Institute > > > (API) > > > > has recommended practices (RP) for fire protection in refineries. > > > > It > > > must > > > > be noted that most API's are recommendations as opposed to > directives. > > > > These directives are based upon a hazard analysis of the > > > > facility > > which > > > > includes input from various stakeholders - owner, owner's > > > > insurance underwriter (if any), refinery safety officials, > > > > emergency response representatives, AHJ's, and the like. Only > > > > after this has been > > performed > > > > should a system such as this be designed. Typically, a US-based > > refinery > > > > itself will have Company-specific requirements for fire > > > > protection > > > related > > > > systems. I suggest finding out if your client has anything like > this. > > > API > > > > RP 2001 provides guidance for Fire Protection in Refineries and > > > > API RP > > > 2030 > > > > provides guidance for Fixed Water Spray in Refineries. If there > > > > is any > > > LPG > > > > processing going on, API Std 2510 and API Publ 2510A provide > > > > some > > > guidance > > > > and recommendations. All these API documents refer frequently > > > > to NFPA Codes and standards. Some of the more commonly > > > > referenced standards > > are > > > > 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 20, 24, 30, 58, 70, and 72. This list is by > > > > no > > means > > > > complete. > > > > > > > > There are several questions that need to be answered which could > > > > have a significant impact on breadth of design(not to mention > > > > cost). Here is > > a > > > > partial list: > > > > - What, if any, is the fireproofing scheme to be used at the > > > > facility? > > > > - Refinery process and equipment configuration: > > > > - Has the equipment layout been finalized? > > > > - Storage tank/vessel location configurations relative > to > > > > each other? > > > > - Storage tank/vessel location configurations relative > to > > > > other equipment/process trains? > > > > - What are the characteristics of the existing water supply, if > > > any? > > > > - Is FM, CE or any other approval required for system > components? > > > > (Most clients in the US require equipment listed for its > > > > intended use > > by > > > > an independent testing laboratory) > > > > - What is the maximum anticipated firewater demand for a single > > > fire > > > > incident including hose allowances? > > > > - Is some other type of suppressant besides water needed or > > > > anticipated? > > > > - Are water spray, top spray, vapor mitigation, or water mist > > type > > > > systems anticipated? > > > > - Anticipated protection of transformers, cooling towers, > > > > - Runoff containment and environmental requirements? > > > > - What are the monitoring requirements? > > > > - Are there aboveground suppression systems anticipated to be > fed > > > > off the firewater loop? > > > > - If so, where? > > > > - What type of systems are they - automatic or manual? > > > > - How are they monitored? > > > > - Are there terminals in your scope? If so, there is a litany > of > > > > other standards which may come into play. > > > > - What are the environmental characteristics of the facility's > > > > locality: > > > > - Ambient temperature range? > > > > - Seismic activity? > > > > - Proximity to populated areas? > > > > - Prevailing winds? > > > > - What is the training level of the personnel who will respond > > in a > > > > fire event? > > > > > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > > > > > Ryan Hinson > > > > Burns & McDonnell > > > > Direct: 952-656-3662 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > László > > > Csonka > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:02 AM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Cc: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: - > > > > > > > > Yes! I'm talking about designing the underground fire loop to > > > > service hydrants, monitorsor etc. > > > > > > > > The problem is that the customer don't trust the country's > > > > regulations, those are not as safe as the US. regulations, so > > > > the fire protection > > > shall > > > > be according to the NFPA and API. > > > > > > > > L. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2013/7/18 <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > Are you talking about designing an underground fire loop to > > > > > service hydrants or to serve sprinkler systems as well? > > > > > > > > > > For such a site as that you have a big job on your hands and > > > > > much of the design will not be out of NFPA Standards as the > > > > > petroleum > > industry > > > > > has considerable documentation regarding fire protection. > > > > > > > > > > You also need to find out what are the Codes and Standards for > > > > > the country where it will be built as there are also > > > > > regulations and > > Codes > > > > > that vary around the world. > > > > > > > > > > This question is not one that can be easily answered on a > > > > > forum like > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > > > > Fire Protection > > > > > CH2MHILL > > > > > Lockwood Greene > > > > > 1500 International Drive > > > > > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > > > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > > > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > > > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > > László Csonka > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 8:42 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: - > > > > > > > > > > Hey Guys! > > > > > > > > > > I have to design a fire water network in an oil refinery. > > > > > Somebody could tell me which is the relating NFPA standard? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *László **Csonka* > > > > > * > > > > > * > > > > > fire safety expert > > > > > +36 20 983 4033 > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > > > > er.org _______________________________________________ > > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > > > > er.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Ron Greenman > > > Instructor > > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > > > 253.680.7346 > > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > > > Member: > > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > > > -Francis > > Bacon, > > > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
