How many years should a man that builds a home on his own property without permission from the government agency spend in prison?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:32 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Gosh, I thought it was just entertainment using a bunch of horse they had > left over from oaters. > > bv > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 10:53:43 PM > Subject: RE: Home Fire Sprinkler Guidance - New Jersey > > Zachary. If Ben's a true Ponderosan, he's organically opposed to paying taxes > at all, let alone higher taxes. The cost of fire to our communities is too > high for the revenue bases that fire departments have to work with. Response > times are getting longer. Some cities with extraordinary financial problems > (Detroit) have experienced 60-minute emergency response times for certain > calls. Fire department apparatus inspection intervals are being stretched. If > crew sizes are reduced, shifts run into overtime, then local news watchdogs > seize the story and tell of fire captains making $100K a year with overtime > and communities react to that as if someone's being taken for a ride. Fire > incidents are holding steady in number, but not the cost of these incidents > and line of duty deaths aren't down at all. Those two last statistics tell of > fires that are more impactful, due almost certainly to the high > combustibility and levels of potential energy in modern fixtures and > furnishings comprised mostly of composite wood products and synthetics. The > heavy timber construction of the Ponderosa has been long since discarded for > reasons of cost and manufacturing efficiencies. > > Ron's allusion to the ecological impact is also valid - higher volume hose > streams carry fire debris into our storm drain systems; the remains get > carted to landfills. Then insurance companies take over and regardless of how > the claim is handled at this particular fire scene, the cost is passed on to > all of us in one form or another. Ron and I had a similar discussion with a > friend of his on Facebook regarding the costs of providing fire suppression > services to "land rights" minded folks who build their home in the Wildland > Urban Interface, but are opposed to sprinklers, higher levels of fire > resistance in their homes and especially against surcharges that would pay > for increased levels of resources and service when it comes time to send in > responders to save those homes. If I were a fire chief in a state that had > subverted residential sprinklers, I would try to change my local building > code to require that homes were either sprinklered or had to be built out of > solid stick framing and Type X throughout. That makes it an easy choice ... > for sprinklers. > > When my neighbor's choice affects my and my family's and emergency > responders' safety, it's not a land rights issue. I appreciate the ethos of > "A (wo)man's home is (her)his castle." I don't advocate that residential > systems in single family dwellings should be subject to ITM or recurring > inspections. As the late Bob Caputo said just last week in a discussion of > this very subject, the police can't enter with probable cause so it's never > going to come to pass that the fire official will have that right. But if a > residential sprinkler system - in its barest essence - is installed properly, > inspecting it shouldn't be an issue, so long as the owner observes a very > small and simple set of guidelines that should be conveyed on every new home. > And ultimately, it is the cheapest way to raise the fire safety standard in > the community; I would rather make a direct payment on an asset that I own > than be nickel and dimed by higher insurance premiums. How many people here > feel compelled to pay for those homes in the Mississippi River Delta that get > flooded every year? Personally, I'm tired of watching CNN and seeing a guy > wearing a "Who Farted" hat telling the reporter, "Yep, it just floated away. > But we're gonna rebuild!" > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] on behalf of Ron > Greenman > Sent: Mon 7/29/2013 9:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Home Fire Sprinkler Guidance - New Jersey > > Ben didn't build the Ponderosa from nothing. he built it on land annexed > from Mexico after the United States Army, an organization financed by the > collective citizens of the United States, after defeating the Army of > Mexico, at that time considered to be the country most likely to emerge as > the major nation in North America. Ben was given his vast holdings by the > people of the US because he promised to develop it, as he did, meeting his > obligation to the people of the US. Then Ben got rich shipping his cattle > to market on the Central Pacific Railroad, cum Southern Pacific, which was > highly subsidized by the US government, ergo us. I notice that Ben got mail > (even the Pony Express was Federally subsidized), Ben went to town, and > relied on Sheriff Roy Coffee hen he needed the law, a servant of the people > enforcing the law. Now Ben probably wouldn't have had insurance and didn't > expect the public fire department to show up if he had a fire but today an > other Ben who doesn't have sprinklers will rely on the public FD to arrive > in public vehicles over public roads, hoof up to the public water system > and rescue him, his family, save his house, and protect his neighbors. Then > there will be lots of damage materials going to the public landfill. His > risk will increase my insurance rates and the insurance rating of the city, > a public entity will suffer. Indeed the government, us has every right to > mandate safety. Remember that codes are not forced upon you to protect you, > they're a collective agreement we force upon each other to protect > ourselves ourselves. Ayn Rand is so full of bullshit I can't even kep my > civility when speaking of her nonsense. I'm all for the cult of the > individual. All the individuals need to find somewhere where civilized, > social humans aren't and fend for themselves. That was Botany Bay an the > first thing the anti-social individuals dropped there did was form a > government and set up rules, that duly elcted members of the community > enforced a officers of the rest. > > I might question these mandates based on a cost /benefit basis. The > increasing requirements for sprinklers have reduced deaths, but maybe > putting them in every house might be the saturation point where the law of > diminishing returns kicks in. So the potential to reduce the 3000 random > lives a year worth it? Certainly would be to you if it's your child saved > but maybe not if it's mine, and vice versa. Ayn saves screw your kid. But > then again the reduction of public infrastructure necessary to protect us > from fire can be reduced, collectively saving us all money if we all > mandate that we all must have sprinklers. What would Ayn say to that? > Government interference with my right to put you at risk from my bad > behavior and then expect the public to provide emergency services. Hmmm.... > I better stop. > > > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Forest Wilson <[email protected]>wrote: > >> I have thought about this issue very much. >> I was formerly supportive of codes mandating installation of fire >> sprinklers in houses. >> >> However after reading Atlas Shrugged I have reconsidered my stance. >> >> At issue is Ben Cartwright, at home on the Ponderosa. Does the state have >> the moral right to go to the Ponderosa and tell the Cartwrights they need >> to install fire sprinklers in the ranch house? >> >> Now Ben is a knowledgeable man. He built the Ponderosa from nothing. If he >> wants them I'm sure he would install them without being coerced. >> >> And what happens if Ben didn't install them? Will the Sheriff go out >> there, and use force (with a gun) to make him do it? If he resists will he >> shot? Will he be imprisoned? >> >> How would Thomas Jefferson reply if the state told him how to design his >> estate? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 29, 2013, at 5:30 PM, Frank Herrick <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> My heartfelt congratulations to everyone in New Jersey who made this >> happen, you have saved lives ! >>> >>> That's a thousand times better than what's happed here in Kansas. Code >> official have been cut off at the knees thanks to the combined efforts of >> the HBA and the Realtor's Association. Local city and county cannot require >> sprinklers in single family housing >>> >>> I guess that the citizens of New jersey are more important than people >> in Kansas and deserve the protection of a residential fire sprinkler >> system. As a fire service professional and a paramedic with over 25 years >> of experience I can tell you exactly what will happen in a home without >> fire sprinklers. >>> >>> Furthermore, I can tell you that the two most likely places these >> residents will relocate to: The Burn Center or The Morgue. >>> >>> Here is the Kansas law that will be responsible for the deaths and >> injuries to numerous Men, Women, Children and the elderly, and who knows >> how many firefighters: >>> >>> Kansas Statute 12-16,219. Cities, counties; prohibition on fire >> sprinkler requirements in certain residential dwellings. >>> >>> (a) As used in this section: >>> >>> (1) "Municipality" means any city or county. >>> >>> (2) "Residential structure" means any improvement to real property to be >> used or occupied as a single-family dwelling or multi-family dwelling of >> two attached living units or less or any manufactured home. >>> >>> (b) No municipality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, order, code, >> standard or rule requiring the installation of a multi-purpose residential >> fire protection sprinkler system or any other fire sprinkler protection >> system in any residential structure. Nothing in this section shall prohibit >> any person from voluntarily installing a multi-purpose residential fire >> protection sprinkler system or any other fire sprinkler protection system >> in a residential structure. >>> >>> (c) No municipality shall require the installation of a multi-purpose >> residential fire protection sprinkler system in any residential structure >> as a condition for consideration or approval of any building permit or plat. >>> >>> History: L. 2010, ch. 116, § 25; L. 2011, ch. 43, § 1; Apr. 14. >>> >>> Very sorrowfully yours, >>> >>> Capt. Frank J. Herrick >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
