IFC doesn't apply here, it is not the recognized code so fire flow is also probably not an issue. This is an international project, not here in Kansas.
Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:32 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical? Ron, Agreed that if you add the fire flow to the sprinkler demand you will have plenty of water. Isn't the sprinkler demand separate and not additive? Similar to standpipe and sprinkler demands. I do a lot fire flow calc's for Civil Engineers here and don't add the two together. Ron F -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 7:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical? Reza, first you have to provide for fire flow per IFC. That is a whole lot of water. Typically you can reduce basic fire flow by 75% if you have sprinklers. That gives you an idea of how much fire flow can be. The AHJ is who determines what the required fire flow needs to be. He could decide to not allow the reduction or could allow the full 75%. On one project the AHJ calculated fire flow lowest, I was highest, and the CE came in between. The CE was confused and I thought I'd given every allowance possible but the AHJ found more give than I had. That said, after you have fire flow defined you add your calculated sprinkler demand and you're done. You will have plenty of water. That's my understanding anyway, but I'm willing for anyone to add, subtract, alter, etc. On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 6:12 AM, Reza Esmaeili <[email protected]>wrote: > Hello Ron, > Thanks for the great explain, it's the best ever and I am crystal > clear now that the demand is determined by the model, not the pressure. > I have two other questions: :-) > - At the ground floor which is near to the pump, the pressure is 60psi > and actual sprinkler flow is 5.6 * sqrt 60=43 Gpm, so if the fire > happens there with 9 operating sprinklers (as calculated below), the > water (4968 gallons) would be only enough for 12 minutes, is it really > acceptable? > - If the demand is determined by the model not the pressure, why some > guys suggest to adjust the pressure at lower floors that are near to > the pump using smaller pipe size or pressure regulator valve? What is > the usage while it doesn't change calculation for water demand? > > Thanks for patience in answering! > Reza > Fluids Mechanical Engineer > www.sarian.ir > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:51 PM > Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical? > > > Reza, > > If you have a demand of 0.1 over 1500 sqft the least number of heads > you could possibly have, if you are able to maximize the layout (we're > talking standard spray/standard coverage heads, not extended coverage > or any other "special" head) is 1500 sqft minimum total area / 225 > sqft maximum coverage area per head (light hazard, smooth flat > ceiling, meeting maximum height requirement for this layout) = 6.67 > heads. Since you can't have fractional coverage of a head you round up > to 7 heads. Now you need to re-calculate 225 sqft per head X 7 heads = > 1575 sqft and so your total water demand is 157.5 gpm (1560 X 0.1). > Let's say the actual layout though causes the per head distribution to > be 184 sqft per head. Same process is > applied: 150 sqft total / 184 sqft per head = 8.15 heads, rounded up > to 9 heads. 184 sqft per head x 9 heads = design area of 1656 sqft. > 1656 sqft X > 0.1 gpm per sqft = 165.6 gpm total demand. Multiply the result times > the required duration (30 minutes for light hazard so in the latter > example > 165.6 gpm x 30 minutes = 4968 gallons. Then add any hose stream > requirements. Demand is determined by the model, not the pressure. The > model requires pressure be calculated to prove its sufficiency to > deliver at least the minimum flow, be it seven psi or greater, to all > the heads in the most demanding area. > > Next time: How to calculate starting pressure (psi) relative to demand > (gpm) given a certain head defined by K. > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:53 AM, Brad Casterline > <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Reza, if your minimum density/area is .1/1500 and you end up with a > demand > > less than 150 GPM you have done something wrong, no matter what > > K-Factor you use! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Reza Esmaeili [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 7:39 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical? > > > > Thanks Allan! > > > > You got the point! > > My occupancy is 6-story light hazard building, with required density > > of > 0.1 > > gpm/ft2 over 1500ft2 and area of sprinkler operation 200ft2 and a > > pump is 300Gpm/70psi located in the basement as well as water tank. > > I am looking for a way to minimize the size of water tank and pump. > > I was thinking about adjusting the flow rate of the sprinklers that > > are near to fire pump which have high flow rate around 40Gpm that I > > don't really > need, > > I > > need only 20GPM. So I was thinking about below options: > > 1- Using smaller K factor sprinklers at 1st, 2nd and 3rd floors > > which are near to the pump to reduce the flow rate near to the > > required, but it > seems > > it's against NFPA-13 which restrict the use of small orifice sprinklers. > > 2- To use smaller pipe size on lower floor, it will save some cost, > > but I am worry it makes high velocity, turbulence and heat. > > 3- Installing a pressure reducer valve on main pipe of 1st, 2nd and > > 3rd floor to reduce the flow rate near to the required flow, I hope > > these valves are not expensive. > > > > > > However while my aim is to reduce the size water tank, all of the > > above options seems to be useless, because sizing water tank is > > another story.before, I wrongly thought that required water for > > sprinkler system > is > > calculated based on water usage on most demanding area, that's why I > > was trying to reduce the sprinkler flow at lower floor! but now > > Understand this is wrong and I found out that to calculate the > > amount of water for sprinkler system I should do one of the > > following: > > A- Simply multiplying 0.1 x 1500 = 150Gpm > > > > B- Calculating water flow for each sprinkler, 0.1 x 200 = 20GPM and > total = > > 7 x 20GPM = 140GPM > > But is it really correct!? At the 1st floor sprinkler water flow is > around > > 40Gpm and the required water flow for sprinklers is 7x35Gpm=245Gpm, > > so A and B calculate 150Gpm and 140Gpm which is lower than actual? > > > > I know I am not clear enough but I tried to be! > > Thanks! > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: AKS-Gmail-IMAP <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 6:45 AM > > Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical? > > > > > > Reza is thinking along the right lines and he is discovering the > > tank > size > > dilemma. In high rise situations where the building code requires a > > tank > it > > is the mercantile operations that are often going on in that ground > > floor that may be driving the tank size. There is no example in the > > code I know of that says to use the nominal numbers as stated in the > > post. The actual language as I recall implies the tank size to be > > based upon the hydraulically calculated demand where the calculation > > method is not qualified to be anything other than how 13 requires a > > sprinkler demand calculation to be done. > > That calculation would reflect whatever the flow overage is for the > remote > > area. > > > > Allan Seidel > > St. Louis, MO > > > > On Aug 14, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > You're over thinking this Reza. The design area(s) (not always the > > "remote > > > area") is the target in the calculation model. Everything is keyed > > > to > > that. > > > The tank will be sized according to 1. the density, 2. times the > > > square footage in the design area, and 3. the duration. So in the > > > case of > light > > > hazard Q=(0.1)(900+ to 1500+)(60), or adjust for metrics). That's > > > what > > you > > > need to CALCULATE to meet NFPA requirements. It's that simple. The > > > rest > > of > > > the process is just seeing if you have adequate pressure to meet > > > that > > goal. > > > Now there's a certain soundness top your perceived problem, and > > > your solution, and > > Richard's, seem like a rationale way to solve said problem. > > > I'm just not convinced there is a problem that requires a > > > difficult solution in a sprinkler system, particularly for six > > > stories. Now a > water > > > spray system is a different story altogether. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Reza Esmaeili > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > >> Thanks for comments > > >> But this is my calculation: > > >> Occupancy: 6-story light hazard building, with required density > > >> of > 0.1 > > >> gpm/ft2 and area of sprinkler operation 200ft2 and a pump is > > 300Gpm/70psi > > >> located in basement as well as water tank. > > >> Required flow rate = 0.1 gpm/ft2 x 200 ft2 = 20 Gpm > > >> - Scenario1: I use different K factors for each floor to limit > > >> the > flow > > >> rate around > > my required, I use K=2.8 for 1st floor, K=4.2 for 2nd floor > > >> .... K=8 for 6th floor. In this way the flow rate will > > >> approximately > > vary > > >> from 21.7Gpm to 29.7Gpm. I calculated 7 active QR sprinklers, so > > >> the required flow rate for sprinklers is 7 x 29.7 = 208Gpm + > > >> 100Gmp hose > > stream > > >> total required flow rate = 308Gpm. > > >> - Scenario2: If I use the same sprinklers with K=8, then at the > > >> 1st > > floor > > >> the pressure is 60psi. I calculated 7 active QR sprinklers, so > > >> the > > required > > >> flow rate for sprinklers is 7 x 62 = 434Gpm + 100Gmp hose stream > > >> total required flow rate = 534Gpm. > > >> > > >> - Scenario3: If I use the same sprinklers with K=8, but I reduce > > >> the > > pipe > > >> sizes of mains on the lower floors in order to increase pressure > > >> drop through the piping, but is it really possible to drop 30 psi > > >> with > > reducing > > >> the pipe sizes? > > Won't make other problems such as high velocity, high > > >> temperature, etc? > > >> > > >> Which Scenario do you like the best to reduce the size of pump > > >> and > water > > >> tank? What is the problem with Scenario 1? > > >> Regards, > > >> Reza > > >> www.saeian.ir > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:14 PM > > >> Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical? > > >> > > >> > > >> remember that pressure is your friend. Not having enough > > pressure is > > >> usually the problem. > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Eric Tysinger > > >> <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Also to add, given a 6-story building with a basement you should > > >>> be looking at about 70ft of elevation difference between the > > >>> basement > and > > >> the > > >>> roof. If a pressure reducing valve was used and you limited the > > pressure > > >> to > > >>> 165psi at the basement level you would should still have at > > >>> least > > 125-135 > > >>> psi available at the roof. > > >>> > > >>> Eric Tysinger CET > > >>> NICET III - 108988 > > >>> Project Manager - Fort Myers Branch Wayne Automatic Fire > > >>> Sprinklers, Inc. > > >>> 4683 Laredo Ave. > > >>> Fort Myers, Florida > > 33905 > > >>> p: (239)433-3030 x1240 f: (239)433-3263 > > >>> C: (239)633-9703 > > >>> > > >>> For Fire Alarm Service and Monitoring questions contact us at: > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> "Ask us how we can eliminate your Fire Alarm phone line bills" > > >>> "Ask us about CCTV, Access Control and Security" > > >>> > > >>> Thank you, and have a great day ! > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > >>> Eric > > >> Tysinger > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:06 PM > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical? > > >>> > > >>> Assuming that you do not exceed the psi rating of the components > > >>> (typically 175psi) on any given floor, why worry about the > > >>> pressure > at > > >> each > > >>> floor? If you do exceed 175psi, the use of a pressure reducing > > >>> valve > at > > >> the > > >>> ground level would be a better choice for controlling your pressures. > > >>> Changing the k-factors would only limit your starting head > > >>> pressures, > > the > > >>> pressure > > available on each floor would still remain the same. > > >>> > > >>> Eric Tysinger CET > > >>> NICET III - 108988 > > >>> Project Manager - Fort Myers Branch Wayne Automatic Fire > > >>> Sprinklers, Inc. > > >>> 4683 Laredo Ave. > > >>> Fort Myers, Florida 33905 > > >>> p: (239)433-3030 x1240 f: (239)433-3263 > > >>> C: (239)633-9703 > > >>> > > >>> For Fire Alarm Service and Monitoring questions contact us at: > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> "Ask us how we can eliminate your Fire Alarm phone line bills" > > >>> "Ask us about CCTV, Access Control and Security" > > >>> > > >>> Thank you, and have a great day ! > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -----Original > > Message----- > > >>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > >>> Reza > > >> Esmaeili > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:34 PM > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Subject: Different K factor in each floor practical? > > >>> > > >>> Hi! > > >>> For a 6 floor business office building considered as light > > >>> hazard occupancy, and the minimum sprinkler discharge density > > >>> 0.1 gpm/ft2, > > that > > >>> the fire pump is located in the basement, in order to adjust > > >>> flow > rate > > of > > >>> sprinklers not to be very high at each floor, what strategy is > usually > > >>> considered? Is it common to use different K factor sprinklers in > > >>> each floor? like the below: > > >>> Lets say the pump is 30Gpm at 70Psi and consider the below: > > >>> - Pressure at 1st floor= 60 psi ---- I choose a sprinkler with > > >>> K=2.8 > to > > >>> have Q=21.7Gpm > > >>> - Pressure at 2nd floor= 50 psi ---- I choose a sprinkler with > > >>> K=4.2 > to > > >>> have Q=29.7Gpm > > >>> - Pressure at 3rd floor= 40 psi ---- I choose a sprinkler with > > >>> K=4.2 > to > > >>> have Q=26.7Gpm > > >>> - Pressure at 4th floor= 30 psi ---- I choose a sprinkler with > > >>> K=4.2 > to > > >>> have Q=23Gpm > > >>> - Pressure at 5th floor= 20 psi ---- I choose a sprinkler with > > >>> K=5.6 > to > > >>> have > > Q=25Gpm > > >>> - Pressure at 6th floor= 10 psi ---- I choose a sprinkler with > > >>> K=8 to > > >> have > > >>> Q=25.3Gpm > > >>> > > >>> The above numbers are theoretical, I just would like to know if > > >>> it is common to change the K factor at each floor to adjust flow rate? > > >>> Or may be a pressure regulated valve is better to use at each > > >>> floor instead of different K factor? > > >>> > > >>> Ps. I have considered to use quick response sprinklers. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks! > > >>> Reza > > >>> www.sarian.ir > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ________________________________ > > >>> From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 5:24 AM > > >>> Subject: Re: Sleep on it! > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Do they stock those foam "dorm" quality mattresses? How many and > > >>> how stored? > > >>> > > >>> I think a lot of places don't. If they do, they ignite easy, and > > >>> burn > > >> fast > > >>> and hot. Burn a single one on edge. The fire is essentially over > > >>> in a minute, with just a small residual flame from remnant puddle. > > >>> > > >>> Temporarily solidified petrochemicals. > > >>> > > >>> bv > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message > > ----- > > >>> From: "Charles Thurston" <[email protected]> > > >>> To: "Vince Sabolik" <[email protected]> > > >>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 3:07:02 PM > > >>> Subject: Re: Sleep on it! > > >>> > > >>> Hello Vince, > > >>> > > >>> Just did one a few months back in a strip center. I will try to > > remember > > >>> when I get to the office tomorrow and see what it was. > > >>> > > >>> Monday, August 12, 2013, 5:58:24 PM, you wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hey forum -- > > >>> > > >>>> Has anyone done a design for a small retail mattress store? > > >>> > > >>>> Would Class III, Group A really > > apply? Not really storage... > > >>> > > >>>> Thanks! > > >>> > > >>>> Vince Sabolik, West Tech Fire Protection, Inc. > > >>>> 11351 Pearl Road / Strongsville, Ohio 44136 440 > > >>>> 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 > > >>>> _______________________________________________________________ > > >>>> _____ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>>> [email protected] > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Best regards, > > >>> Charles mailto:[email protected] > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing > > list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Ron Greenman > > >> Instructor > > >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > > >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > >> Tacoma, WA 98405 > > >> > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > >> > > >> 253.680.7346 > > >> 253.576.9700 (cell) > > >> > > >> Member: > > >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > >> > > >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > > >> -Francis > > Bacon, > > >> essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> > > >> > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Ron Greenman > > > Instructor > > > Fire Protection Engineering > > Technology > > > Bates Technical College > > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > > > 253.680.7346 > > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > > > Member: > > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > > > -Francis > > Bacon, > > > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. 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