If there was ever an application of putting a square peg (design spacing) in a round hole (actual discharge pattern), sprinklers is it.
Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 www.fpdc.com On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:31 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Do you mean the same rectangular spray pattern? ( hehe) > > Ron F > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Casterline > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 12:17 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: removing sprinkler on drop > > I still have fresh enough scars to throw SAME PATTERN in there too :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Leyton [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 2:06 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: removing sprinkler on drop > > I dunno Pete - didn't we hear a proposal in that regard last week? Who > submitted that? > > The FIRE CODE tells us that, absent a change of use and/or occupancy, a FLS > system is required to be maintained in accordance with the code(s) and > standard(s) that governed at the time the system and building were > originally permitted for occupancy. So you would use your professional > judgment to select a new sprinkler that most closely approximates the > discharge characteristics and RTI of the displaced sprinkler and move > on. > > This isn't rocket science. Is there anyone who thinks that replacing a > sprinkler with one of the same K-factor and RTI will compromise the > capability of a control-mode system to function properly in that mode? > Regardless of whether that sprinkler is listed for .03 or .05 or is > calculated at .10? > > SML > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pete > Schwab > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 11:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: removing sprinkler on drop > > Steve > So what do you do if the sprinkler is no longer available? (Residential > sprinklers prior to the minimum .05 density and the NFPA 13 2002 requirement > for a minimum 0.10 density) Pete > > Peter Schwab > VP of Purchasing & Engineering Technologies > > Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. > 222 Capitol Court > Ocoee, Fl 34761 > > Mobile: (407) 468-8248 > Direct: (407) 877-5570 > Fax: (407) 656-8026 > > www.waynefire.com > > > > Celebrating over 34 years of life safety > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 1:38 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: removing sprinkler on drop > > I didn't mean it as a poke at you - this is the same underlying problem as > with ITM. So long as there are one or two service providers that will do an > "inspection" for $250, then it's always going to be that much more > challenging to sell a complete and comprehensive professional > service package into that market. More universally, the standard > practice needs to be that sprinklers be replaced when they are removed from > fittings, period. And this will entail hammering on enforcers to hold up > their end of the equation as well, which is really the only way > that unscrupulous corner-cutters can be held accountable. > > Steve > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 10:30 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: removing sprinkler on drop > > "adjust prices" > With all due respect Steve - I said the WE would comply with code......we are > still in the fight every day with those that don't. So issues like this are > business killers for those of us that work with the unscrupulous and > uneducated....Not that we ourselves are unfallible - but we do at least try. > > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Steve Leyton > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> I was asked about 4 years ago to assist with a lawsuit as either a >> technical consultant or designated expert that was focused on this >> exact issue. The case was over a sprinkler that discharged in a > retail suite >> that was being remodeled. A sprinkler contractor had relocated a >> sprinkler by wrenching out the drop with sprinkler intact, and >> reinstalling it a couple feet away. After they did the work, there >> were painters and finishers working in the suite over a weekend. >> Sunday night, the sprinkler released and flooded the suite, wrecked >> the new paint and drywall, etc., etc. >> >> Neither side could prove their points. The sprinkie alleged that >> other trades must have hit the pipe and the finishers and painters >> were using pads and rollers on extensions, so that was a distinct > possibility. >> And there were teeth marks on the drop, but it wasn't possible to say >> forensically and with certainty if they were made during the T.I. or >> rough-in. But, there was no way corroborate the fitter's affidavit > that >> he hadn't dropped, wrenched or mishandled the sprinkler. No forensic >> conclusions could be reached regarding the sprinkler, as certain parts > >> were missing and someone (a responding firefighter, allegedly) had >> badly damaged the sprinkler. The bottom line is that if the sprinkler > >> had been new, there would have been no allegation of negligence >> against the sprinkie. >> >> Whatever sprinklers cost, this is the new price of tea in China folks. >> Adjust prices and let's move on. >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> Greg McGahan >> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 9:19 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: removing sprinkler on drop >> >> H >> ave we sufficient evidence that it is the reinstalled heads are the >> ones accidently discharging? >> >> It just seems like a waste to throw a 20 dollar head away because you >> have to remove and reinstall.....or even a 3 dollar head. >> >> We WILL comply with code, but I strongly disagree. >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Todd - Work <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I would think that the vast majority of problems in mis-handling >>> sprinklers in this manner come from premature actuation (especially >>> with glass bulb) and not failure to actuate in a fire. I would also >>> think that only in very rare circumstances would you lose a building > >>> due to an accidental discharge of a sprinkler. >>> >>> Todd G Williams, PE >>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting >>> Stonington, CT >>> www.fpdc.com >>> >>> On Sep 5, 2013, at 11:48 AM, "Cahill, Christopher" >>> <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> "then it appears you can re-use sprinklers left in drops or > sprigs" >>> Where does this appearance come from? I don't see it in the Code, >>> Annex or Handbook. Quite frankly, that is the only place that >>> counts in descending order of priority. >>>> >>>> I agree with Todd there is some judgment and risk tolerance. I'm >>>> sure >>> not 'buying' a building loss over what a <$10 device I my current >> role. >>> When I was a contractor maybe we weren't perfect in this regard. >>> When I was an AHJ if asked - new, and lot of don't ask don't tell. >>>> >>>> Chris Cahill, PE* >>>> Senior Fire Protection Engineer >>>> Burns & McDonnell >>>> 8201 Norman Center Drive >>>> Bloomington, MN 55437 >>>> Phone: 952.656.3652 >>>> Fax: 952.229.2923 >>>> [email protected] >>>> www.burnsmcd.com >>>> >>>> Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For >>>> *Registered in: MN >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A. >>> Sornsin, P.E. >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 10:27 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: RE: removing sprinkler on drop >>>> >>>> I would argue that this shouldn't be an argument as long as it is >>> specified up-front. If the owner or engineer says do not reinstall, > >>> then don't argue, because if you win, it is your butt on the line >>> should the head fail. >>>> >>>> If this is a competitive bid situation or direct work with owner, >>>> with >>> no c >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin >>> kl >>> er.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Greg McGahan >> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> >> 1160 McKenzie Road >> Cantonment, FL 32533 >> 850-937-1850 >> fax 850-937-1852 >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er >> .org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> er.org > > > > -- > Greg McGahan > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > fax 850-937-1852 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler > .org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler > .org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler > .org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
