I've been out of my office for over a week, so apologies for not acknowledging the calls for my expertise. I gotta say if it's come down to me, you're all a lot more desperate than I thought ...
I notice replies from others on this thread and I think I concur with consensus. If these are two truly separated buildings (at least as defined by code), are you proposing two separate standpipe systems? Separate response addresses, separate FDC’s? Or is this going to be one universal system. Any way you look at it, the parking structure isn’t sprinklered and code would say that you need a Class III with 1,250 GPM demand. The tower would be 750, so garage obviously more demanding. If you’re proposing a single automatic water supply/single system configuration, then I’d say it has to meet the 1,250, HOWEVER … Why is the garage required to be automatic. By definition and open structure, even one taller than 75’ isn’t a high-rise. Code allows up to 12 tiers without sprinklers if I recall correctly, so the “usual” rules don’t necessarily apply. My guess is that manual dry is adequate – at least per code. So my answer would be that you should look into a 1,250 GPM manual-dry and a 750 GPM auto-wet for the tower (assuming only two stairs). Is the AHJ or another stakeholder requiring auto-dry in the garage? The foregoing is my opinion only and does not necessarily represent the opinion or intent of the NFPA 14 Technical Committee on Standpipe and Hose Systems. SML -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Matsuda Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 9:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: standpipes in fire separated building Greg,I believe the intent of NFPA-14 is to include flow from all the standpipes within a building that the fire dept would connect to in a fire emergency. If the floors in the parking garage do not communicate with hallways and doors to the floors in the high-rise building, then the fire dept will not connect to the standpipes in the parking garage to fight a theoretical fire in the high-rise...and visa-versa.Just my opinion...Mr. Leyton probably could answer this for you.rick matsuda On Monday, June 29, 2015 10:06 AM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> wrote: What about this section? A.7.10.1.1 If a water supply system supplies more than one building or more than one fire area, the total supply can be calculated based on the single building or fire area requiring the greatest number of standpipes. For a discussion of use by the fire department of fire department connections, see NFPA 13E <http://codesonline.nfpa.org/a/c.ref/NFC13E/book> , *Recommended Practice for Fire Department Operations in Properties Protected by Sprinkler and Standpipe Systems*. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Pete Schwab <[email protected]> wrote: > If the piping supply is connected (common supply piping) then I would > say you have to calculate until you reach 1250 GPM (since the garage > is not sprinklered). > > 7.10.1.2.3* Common supply piping shall be calculated and sized to > provide the required flow rate for all standpipes connected to such > supply piping, with the total not to exceed the maximum flow demand in > 7.10.1.1.5. > > A.7.10.1.2.3 Flow is added at nodes in a standpipe system in > 250 gpm (946 L/min) increments without requiring additional flow, > which might occur from higher pressures at that node (balancing the > system). The common supply piping should be hydraulically calculated > based on the required flow rate [500, 750, 1000, or 1250 gpm (1893, > 2840, 3785, or > 4732 L/min)] for the standpipe system. The calculated pressure for the > standpipe system does not have to be balanced at the point of > connection to the common supply piping. > > It should be noted that the above is my opinion. It has not been > processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA > Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be > considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA or > its Committees. > > Peter Schwab > VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies > > Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. > 222 Capitol Court > Ocoee, Fl 34761 > > Mobile: (407) 468-8248 > Direct: (407) 877-5570 > Fax: (407) 656-8026 > > www.waynefire.com > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 7:49 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: standpipes in fire separated building > > I will find out tomorrow but this is one lot so I presume it is a fire > wall. The separation into two different buildings appears to not be > necessary per the excerpt from 14. They appear to meet definition of > fire AREA. At least that is indeed what I hope. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 28, 2015, at 10:21 AM, John Drucker - Home < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Greg, > > > > So the garage is classified as a separate building and the two > > systems > are independent ? Two (2) Hour Rated Wall needs clarification, if > it’s a fire wall or PARTY WALL (See 706.1.1 below) then two separate > buildings. > Ask the architect. That’s the key. > > > > 706.1 General. Each portion of a building separated by one or more > > fire walls that comply with the provisions of this section shall be > > considered a separate building. The extent and location of such fire > > walls shall provide a complete separation separation. Where a fire > > wall also separates occupancies that are required to be separated by > > a fire barrier wall, the most restrictive requirements of each > > separation shall apply. > > > > 706.1.1 Party walls. Any wall located on a lot line between adjacent > > buildings, which is used or adapted for joint service between the > > two buildings, shall be constructed as a fire wall in accordance > > with Section 706. > > Party walls shall be constructed without openings and shall create > > separate buildings. > > > > > > Here's the IBC/IFC Code Sections; > > > > [F] 905.2 Installation standard. Standpipe systems shall be > > installed in accordance with this section and NFPA 14. > > > > 905.3.1 Height. Class III standpipe systems shall be installed > > throughout buildings where the floor level of the highest story is > > located more than 30 feet (9144 mm) above the lowest level of the > > fire department vehicle access, or where the floor level of the > > lowest story is located more than 30 feet (9144 mm) below the > > highest level of fire department vehicle access. > > Exceptions: > > 1. Class I standpipes are allowed in buildings equipped throughout > > with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section > > 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2. > > 2. Class I manual standpipes are allowed in open parking garages > > where the highest floor is located not more than 150 feet (45 720 > > mm) above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access. > > 3. Class I manual dry standpipes are allowed in open parking garages > > that are subject to freezing temperatures, provided that the hose > > connections are located as required for Class II standpipes in > > accordance with Section 905.5. > > 4. Class I standpipes are allowed in basements equipped throughout > > with an automatic sprinkler system. > > 5. In determining the lowest level of fire department vehicle > > access, it shall not be required to consider: > > 5.1. Recessed loading docks for four vehicles or less, and 5.2. > > Conditions where topography makes access from the fire department > > vehicle to the building impractical or impossible. > > > > [F] 905.4.2 Interconnection. In buildings where more than one > > standpipe is provided, the standpipes shall be interconnected in > > accordance with NFPA 14. > > > > 2014 NFPA-14 > > > > 7.10 Flow Rates. > > > > 7.10.1 Class I and Class III Systems. > > > > 7.10.1.1* Flow Rate. > > > > 7.10.1.1.1 For Class I and Class III systems, the minimum flow rate > > for the hydraulically most remote standpipe shall be > > 500 gpm (1893 L/min), through the two most remote 21⁄2 in. > > (65 mm) outlets, and the calculation procedure shall be in > > accordance with 7.10.1.2. > > > > 7.10.1.1.2 Where a horizontal standpipe on a Class I or Class III > > system supplies three or more hose connections on any floor, the > > minimum flow rate for the hydraulically most demanding horizontal > > standpipe shall be 750 gpm > > (2840 L/min), and the calculation procedure shall be in accordance > > with 7.10.1.2.2. > > > > 7.10.1.1.3 The minimum flow rate for additional standpipes shall be > > 250 gpm (946 L/min) per standpipe for buildings with floor areas > > that do not exceed 80,000 ft2 (7432 m2) per floor. For buildings > > that exceed 80,000 ft2 (7432m2) per floor, the minimum flow rate for > > the additional standpipes shall be > > 500 gpm (1893 L/min) for the second standpipe and 250 gpm > > (946 L/min) for the third standpipe if the additional flow is > > required for an unsprinklered building. > > > > 7.10.1.1.5 The maximum flow rate shall be 1000 gpm > > (3785 L/min) for buildings that are sprinklered throughout, in > > accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler > > Systems, and 1250 gpm (4731 L/min) for buildings that are not > > sprinklered throughout, in accordance with NFPA 13. > > > > Hope that helps, > > > > > > John Drucker, CET > > Assistant Construction Official > > Fire Protection Subcode Official > > Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector > > Borough of Red Bank > > Red Bank, New Jersey > > Email: [email protected] > > Cell/Text: 732-904-6823 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Travis Mack > > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 11:14 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: standpipes in fire separated building > > > > Look in the IBC and see if that 2 hour wall meets the separation > requirements for a fire separation. > > > > If so, I think you should be able to treat as separate buildings for > > the > standpipe system. > > > > Travis Mack, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > "Follow" us on Facebook: > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > > Send large files to MFP Design via: > > https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jun 26, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> I am looking a t a high rise building with 2 stair wells attached > >> to a > >> 7 story parking garage that is not protected. the Parking garage > >> will have two stairwells and be served by automatic dry standpipes. > >> The Parking Garage and the High Rise are separated by a 2 hour rated wall. > >> > >> Question: Do I have to calculate all 4 standpipes simultaneously or > >> can I calc each set separately due to the fire separation between > >> the > two areas? > >> > >> Thank You, > >> > >> > >> Greg McGahan > >> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > >> 1160 McKenzie Road > >> Cantonment, FL 32533 > >> 850-937-1850 > >> fax 850-937-1852 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > >> nk > >> l > >> er.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
