You might want to put a handwashing sink in the pump room downstream of the pump. It seems like adding one toilet to an otherwise stand-alone sprinkler system, to make it a flow-through system to alleviate the need for a backflow, at least in Washington, turns it into a plumbing system.
Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com 253.576.9700 The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-) On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:25 AM Mike B Morey via Sprinklerforum < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > I would say your own assessment if I understand it, of "it could be a > private waterworks system if the AHJ approves" is correct. There is in my > mind one big caveat beyond approved/not approved by the AHJ and that's the > reliability of the pump if it is equipped with mechanical seals rather than > gland packing since it may not being regularly run now that there is no > domestic usage. In an ideal world you'd probably put a red pump in, but > that's obviously not the ideal solution from the owner's perspective. In > this situation I'd probably want to sit the owner and AHJ and maybe > insurance down in a room with yourself. Arguably whether explicit or > implicit there's some degree of "it's already there and works" to lend > credence to it being a "private water supply" but that's above our > collective pay grade. > > ------------------------------ > > *Mike Morey* > *CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677* > *Project Manager* • Fire Protection Group > * Shambaugh & Son, LP **an EMCOR Company* > 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 > *direct *260.487.7824* / cell *260.417.0625* / fax *260.487.7991 > * email *mmo...@shambaugh.com > > > > > > > > From: "Reed A. Roisum, SET via Sprinklerforum" < > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > To: "sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org" < > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Cc: "Reed A. Roisum, SET" <raroi...@kfi-eng.com> > Date: 07/08/2020 01:01 PM > Subject: RE: Pump or Fire Pump > Sent by: "Sprinklerforum" < > sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > ------------------------------ > > > > BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR. > > > There is a couple of small additions to the building and domestic water > was removed from the system. > > That is one question that came up, should the original system have been > designed with a fire pump as it was for domestic and fire? The AHJ has not > approved the system and seems to be questioning whether this should be a > listed fire pump installed per NFPA 20 or if this is can be looked at as > though it is like a municipal system until you hit the backflow. > > > Reed A. Roisum, SET *|* *KFI Engineers* *|* Senior Fire Protection > Designer *|* Fargo, ND *|* *direct:* 701.552.9903* | **mobile:* > 701.388.1352 *|* *KFIengineers.com* > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.kfiengineers.com__;!!FaxH778!NNQ74vO_AftLU_0fnsW8tEIL5qDr5TcoABvnMoFeDuWupg2vjijtkR_YlUOoYgpK$> > *From:* Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> *On > Behalf Of *Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum > * Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:44 AM > * To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > * Cc:* Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com> > * Subject:* Re: Pump or Fire Pump > > what kind of changes are you making to the system? Is this a case where a > previously approved application is still approved? > > Matt > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Sprinklerforum <*sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org* > <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> on behalf of Reed A. > Roisum, SET via Sprinklerforum <*sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org* > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> > * Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2020 10:33 AM > * To:* *sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org* > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> < > *sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org* > <sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> > * Cc:* Reed A. Roisum, SET <*raroi...@kfi-eng.com* <raroi...@kfi-eng.com>> > * Subject:* Pump or Fire Pump > > I have a project where there is an existing domestic pump and water > storage tanks. They used to serve both domestic and fire protection in a > group of buildings but are no longer being used for domestic but fire > protection only. The pump is not a fire pump. Does it need to be? > > There is a building 1,000 feet from the protected buildings that houses > the pump and tanks. The pump charges a 3” underground that supplies > multiple buildings that each have their own backflow assembly and riser. > In my mind, it is basically the same set up as a municipal system, but > instead of doing a flow test at the hydrant outside of the building to find > my water supply, I look at the pump curve and design back to the pump. The > other thought I had, was that this system is now to supply water only for > the fire protection system so now I need to demo that perfectly adequate > pump and replace it with a red one to meet the codes/standards. > > Looking at NFPA 13, 2016 edition, Chapter 24 Water Supplies, they list > acceptable water supplies for sprinkler systems… > One acceptable arrangement is “A connection to an *approved *public or* > private waterworks system* in accordance with 24.2.2”. > 24.2.2 seems to just require that you are connected to a “reliable > waterworks system”. > > Just wondering if my existing tank and pump arrangement could be > considered a reliable private waterworks system? I guess that is up to the > discretion of the AHJ? > > *NFPA 13, 2016 edition* > *Chapter 24 Water Supplies* > *24.1 General.* > *24.2 Types.* > *24.2.1*** Water supplies for sprinkler systems shall be one of the > following or any combination:* > *(1) A connection to an approved **public or private waterworks system** > in accordance with 24.2.2* > *(2) A connection including a fire pump in accordance with 24.2.3* > *(3) A connection to a water storage tank at grade or below grade > installed in accordance with NFPA 22 and filled from an approved source* > *(4) A connection to a pressure tank in accordance with 24.2.4 and filled > from an approved source* > *(5) A connection to a gravity tank in accordance with 24.2.5 and filled > from an approved source* > *(6) A penstock, flume, river, lake, pond, or reservoir in accordance with > 24.2.6* > *(7)*A source of recycled or reclaimed water where the building owner (or > their agent) has analyzed the source of the water and the treatment process > (if any) that the water undergoes before being made available to the > sprinkler system and determined that any materials, chemicals, or > contaminants in the water will not be detrimental to the components of the > sprinkler system it comes in contact with* > *24.2.2* Connections to Waterworks Systems.* > *24.2.2.1* > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://24.2.2.1__;!!FaxH778!NNQ74vO_AftLU_0fnsW8tEIL5qDr5TcoABvnMoFeDuWupg2vjijtkR_YlY6ryKrT$>* > A connection to a reliable waterworks system shall be an acceptable water > supply source.* > *24.2.2.2*** The volume and pressure of a public water supply shall be > determined from waterflow test data or other approved method.* > *24.2.3* Pumps**. A single automatically controlled fire pump installed > in accordance with NFPA 20 shall be an acceptable water supply source* > > I couldn’t find a definition of ‘waterworks’ in NFPA or IBC. > BTW, 2018 IBC is applicable. > > Any help or code/standard references are appreciated. > > Thank you. > Reed Roisum > > > Reed A. Roisum, SET *|* *KFI Engineers* *|* Senior Fire Protection > Designer *|* Fargo, ND *|* *direct:* 701.552.9903* | **mobile:* > 701.388.1352 *|* *KFIengineers.com* > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fwww.kfiengineers.com&c=E,1,mxirS9-jVuw4dWsfp1GyRgcLdwU7Ve5QIKz9dp5KG0h8DmyYvblK1s3eodTtkMNwVwuAzEu9yssg_Koy0TIZGuwlypQFDIiAkoxHKlVtWzOk9KU,&typo=1__;JSUl!!FaxH778!NNQ74vO_AftLU_0fnsW8tEIL5qDr5TcoABvnMoFeDuWupg2vjijtkR_YlS_r2hwS$> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org__;!!FaxH778!NNQ74vO_AftLU_0fnsW8tEIL5qDr5TcoABvnMoFeDuWupg2vjijtkR_Yldab_XIj$ > > This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain > confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No > confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. 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