The prior editions of NFPA 24 do not restrict the use of non-metallic spigot pieces (riser coming up through the floor from the underground piping) I discovered this fact a few years ago, while responding to the question when doing Advisory Service for NFPA. I was surprised and concerned for all of the reasons of exposure now enumerated in the annex when installing materials this way.
As for temperature, about 8 years ago, I was asked to evaluate a high pressure problem at a high rise building in Honolulu, where the daily pressures were excessive. Upon visiting the site, we discovered the standpipes were interconnected at the top of the building (on the roof) as opposed to the floor level. The steel pipe was exposed to direct sunlight every day... increasing the system pressure significantly. We proposed tenting the pipe on the roof to solve the problem, which it did. The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official position of the AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical committees. AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such. Bob Caputo, President American Fire Sprinkler Association -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 10:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL <craig.pr...@jacobs.com>; John Denhardt <jdenha...@firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material Thanks for the additional comments John, oh and BTW, I guess the forum doesn't do different text colors. My point was that if you are unsure whether or not an item is being used correctly, go to the sources, either the manufacturer's installation guidelines, the letter from the recognized testing agency, or the Approval Guide and verify one way or another whether the component is being used and is installed as it was intended. There are those out there who will try to gain an advantage over others by substituting cheaper or more easily installed materials regardless of whether or not the choice material is appropriate or not. So if it doesn't seem right, verify. As far as temperature exposure versus pressure rating degradation, whether someone agrees or not doesn't matter. It is a tested and proven fact provided in the published data by the manufacturer. I'd be curious how the NFPA 24 committee viewed this information. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, July 6, 2021 11:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: John Denhardt <jdenha...@firesprinkler.org> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material Looking at Craig's comments directly, I want to provide some information. *(in blue bold)* 1. Go to the manufacturer's data and see if it is listed to be installed above grade per UL and/or FM as a fire riser. * I am not aware of many nonmetallic underground materials which are Listed for a fire riser. The NFPA 24 technical committee acknowledged this during the debates on the new language which was added for the 2019 editions of NFPA 13 and 24..* 2. Exposure to elevated temperatures such as in a fire event can cause plastic pipe to fail. The pressure rating of Non-metallic pipe is typically coupled to the design temperature at which it is intended to be used. A class of piping that may be rated for 175 psi at 73 deg. (f) will not provide the same resiliency at 150 deg (f) and even less at 500 deg. (f). For example, C900 PVC obtains its pressure rating at an ambient temperature of 73 deg. (f) at which its pressure rating reduction coefficient would be 100 (100% of pressure rating is attainable). At 140 deg. (f) it's pressure reduction coefficient is .22 where it has lost 75% of its pressure rating. This is why we typically do not accept plastic pipe of any kind above grade for a riser unless the manufacturer explicitly states that it is Listed and/or Approved for such an installation. * I do not disagree with the information. The NFPA 24 technical committee reviewed this data.* 3. Additional support is needed for the riser assembly. *Agree.* *What I want to add is that the NFPA 24 technical committee added new language in the 2019 editions of NFPA 13 and 24 to cover this application. This material was discussed and debated in detail.* NFPA 13 - 6.1.4* Underground piping shall be permitted to extend into the building through the slab or wall not more than 24 in. (600 mm). [24:10.1.4] NFPA 13 - A.6.1.4 Where nonmetallic underground piping is provided above grade or inside a building, the following should be considered: (1) Exposure from direct rays of sunlight (2) Compatibility with chemicals such as floor coatings and termiticides/insecticides (3) Support of piping and appurtenances attached thereto (e.g., sprinkler risers, backflow preventers) [24:A.10.1.4] *I fully understand Craig's concern and as an engineer of record, he can specify what he wants. However, the NFPA 24 technical committee understood these concerns and still allowed the use of this material in this application.* *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such.* Thanks, John John August Denhardt, PE *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* *American Fire Sprinkler Association* m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TVb4HhVqGQkfYgH1yXI2yMhPH9cH16hP1L-R9uVeY3LqbPxGbKfbNYKU13NKOCu5Ow$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TVb4HhVqGQkfYgH1yXI2yMhPH9cH16hP1L-R9uVeY3LqbPxGbKfbNYKU13OIMfnf4w$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TVb4HhVqGQkfYgH1yXI2yMhPH9cH16hP1L-R9uVeY3LqbPxGbKfbNYKU13OjTyt3dw$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TVb4HhVqGQkfYgH1yXI2yMhPH9cH16hP1L-R9uVeY3LqbPxGbKfbNYKU13NypVsHYg$ > *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* *Apprentice Trainers Wanted* It’s time to put your knowledge and experience to work training the next generation of Fire Sprinkler Fitters and Technicians. In preparation to deliver related technical instruction (RTI) for national apprenticeship training, AFSA currently seeks qualified instructors. Click here <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.firesprinkler.org/trainers__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TVb4HhVqGQkfYgH1yXI2yMhPH9cH16hP1L-R9uVeY3LqbPxGbKfbNYKU13O-0Eqajw$ > for more information. On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 2:43 PM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > I think the question was related to the material, not the height of > the extension above the slab. > > 1. Go to the manufacturer's data and see if it is listed to be > installed above grade per UL and/or FM as a fire riser. > > 2. Exposure to elevated temperatures such as in a fire event can cause > plastic pipe to fail. The pressure rating of Non-metallic pipe is > typically coupled to the design temperature at which it is intended to > be used. A class of piping that may be rated for 175 psi at 73 deg. > (f) will not provide the same resiliency at 150 deg (f) and even less at > 500 deg. (f). > For example, C900 PVC obtains its pressure rating at an ambient > temperature of 73 deg. (f) at which its pressure rating reduction > coefficient would be > 100 (100% of pressure rating is attainable). At 140 deg. (f) it's > pressure reduction coefficient is .22 where it has lost 75% of its > pressure rating. > This is why we typically do not accept plastic pipe of any kind above > grade for a riser unless the manufacturer explicitly states that it is > Listed and/or Approved for such an installation. > > 3. Additional support is needed for the riser assembly. > > > > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | > craig.pr...@jacobs.com | http://www.jacobs.com > 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 > CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Ken Wagoner via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 1:54 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: Ken Wagoner <k...@parsleyconsulting.com>; Jerry Van Kolken < > jvankol...@mfpc.us> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stub-up Material > > Jerry, > It's in 24 > > 10.1.4.1* Underground piping shall be permitted to extend into the > building through the slab or wall not more than 24 in. (600 mm). > > See the annex also. And no California revision to disallow this. > > sincerely, > *Ken Wagoner, SET > *Parsley Consulting* > *500 West Mechanic Street > *Harrisonville, MO 64701 > *****Phone 760-745-6181* > Visit the website < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/__;!!B5ci > xuoO7ltTeg!QsxnsRQTlnie22AZR05QBHGP6Pq1wr5RLmg5SPUE-3J_d0LoRP09tvHM2iN > Dq5CPxQ$ > > ***** > > > ** > On 6/29/2021 10:44 AM, Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum wrote: > > I have a project where the UG contractor stub-up with PVC pipe with > > a > Mega-lug cap. I've reviewed NFPA 13 / 24 and didn't see anything to > indicate this was not legit. What / Where can I reference the > correctness of this installation? > > > > > > Jerry Van Kolken > > Millennium Fire Protection Corp. > > 2950 San Luis Rey Rd. > > Oceanside, CA 92058 > > (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730 > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are for the > > sole > use of the intended recipients and contain information that may be > confidential or legally privileged. If you have received this e-mail > in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail and delete the > message. 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