I’ve had AHJ’s call me out for not picking the more obvious fire scenario, but I stick to the most demanding and then your bases are covered.
It’s not a start at the most demanding sprinkler and then pick up the ones closest to it. It’s the group of 4 sprinklers that produce the greatest hydraulic demand. Taylor Schumacher From: Brett Peters <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:41 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13 Caution: This email originated from outside your organization. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. This is my thought, so if the area ends up being the master bedroom and there is one line that feeds the bedroom, closet and ensuite and another line that feeds living area sprinklers, if the master bedroom is the hydraulically most demanding space then the adjacent sprinklers would be the closet and ensuite, this is both the most likely "next sprinklers to activate as well as flowing the 3 heads on one line would be more demanding from a pressure loss standpoint, this other "company" is calculating the heads in the living space and usually ending up with the 4 heads being from 3 separate lines. I'm saying his system is underdesigned and doesn't represent the "hydraulically most demanding sprinklers" and he is saying that my way is over designed. Are we spending too much money on our design (material costs) or is he opening himself up to a liability issue? Trying to determine which is actually the "right" way to design the system as there are cost implications. I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday August 22nd Thanks Brett Peters General Manager Installation & Design Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd. [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 780 490 7602 office ext 202 780 490 7605 fax 780 777 0568 cell 780 718 2676 24h Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> for more information [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 10:22 AM Greg McGahan <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: The intent is to calculate the 4 most demanding sprinklers that would activate in a single fire event, therefore we tend to submit the version that reflects that scenario but we typically prove the calcs for our sake. On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 11:07 AM Brett Peters <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: LOL, unfortunately I have someone arguing that it can be done the other way because "those heads have a larger area of coverage". In my opinion they are twisting the definitions of "adjacent" and "hydraulically most demanding" to include the sprinklers that cover the largest area but in my opinion the largest floor space doesn't necessarily present as the most demanding. I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday August 22nd Thanks Brett Peters General Manager Installation & Design Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd. [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 780 490 7602 office ext 202 780 490 7605 fax 780 777 0568 cell 780 718 2676 24h Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> for more information [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 9:31 AM Chris Dorn <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Brett, I think you answered your own question. “I always choose whatever gives me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.” Wouldn’t that by definition be the hydraulically most demanding area regardless of location? It’s exactly what I do also in this situation. Chris Dorn From: Brett Peters <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM To: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13 Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the hydraulic calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the calculation has to include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013 11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four adjacent sprinklers that produce the greatest hydraulic demand. With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a space where you have less than 4 sprinklers in a compartment and you have to start adding sprinklers in other compartments to come up with 4 in the calculation, what is the method that you have to use? So for arguments sake this scenario is 2 sprinklers in one compartment and then two "adjacent" sprinklers outside of that compartment but there are sprinklers in different directions that can be considered as "adjacent" 1. Adding sprinklers from the next compartment on a different sprinkler line which would qualify as an "adjacent sprinkler" and potentially have 4 sprinklers fed form 3 different lines or 2. adding "adjacent sprinklers" that are first on a common sprinkler line and potentially having 3 sprinklers on a single line. My argument is that scenario 2 has to be followed as that would produce the largest demand to a sprinkler line and if required increase the size of that line. The other argument is that in scenario 1 they are picking the "adjacent sprinkler" that has a larger protection area, so the actual water flow might be slightly higher but it spreads the flow through 3 different lines instead of only 2 So scenario 1 has more flow but less pressure loss resulting in smaller piping and scenario 2 has less flow but more pressure loss requiring larger pipe to be installed. So what are other people doing in these situations and what is really considered as producing the greatest hydraulic demand? I always choose whatever gives me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow. I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday August 22nd Thanks Brett Peters General Manager Installation & Design Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd. [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 780 490 7602 office ext 202 780 490 7605 fax 780 777 0568 cell 780 718 2676 24h Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> for more information [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.] _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> -- Greg McGahan Genesis Fire Services, LLC 4912 Glover Lane. 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