Lars-Einar Jansson wrote:
> Well, that was somewhat confusing. Don't you get the same
> result both ways? *Your time*, which in this case was
> early in the morning, 04.27 minus the *negative* offset
> means you will have to add eight hours to get the time in
> UT (GMT) which will then be 12.27 and UT 12.27 plus the
> negative offset means you will have to *subtract* eight
> hours, bringing the result of 04.27.
Sorry about my messy description, but I see you understood
anyway. <g>
Yes, ofcourse I get the same both ways. It is however
not obvious which way one should use until one is told.
> Anyhow, the timestamp always shows the *local* time when
> the mail was written, and as this timestamp is dependent
> on the clock-setting of your computer this is probably the
> most practical way of doing it. That way, you will know
> when you wrote your mail without having to do any
> calculations.
Hmm, yes but "my" computer is more likely to be off than
some server (I think).
As far as knowing when I wrote my mail is concerned,
well I don't find that so important. What I think is
important is when I wrote it in relation to others. Also
when they wrote theirs, in relation to mine. The way I see
it (correct me if I'm wrong) is that I now have to make
two calculations in order to figure that out.
> I don't find this offset terribly difficult to understand.
> Think of it this way: If it's negative, your clock will be
> that many hours *behind* UT and if it's positive, your
> clock will be that many hours *ahead of* UT. As my offset
> is +0100, this means I should add *nine* hours to find out
> when you wrote your mail in my local time.
Quite right, it is easy to understand once one knows which
number one has to add _to_ or subtract _from_. What I did
not understand when I first encountered this a long time
ago, is that *my* time is the one I am to take as the
standard. This was counterintuitive for me because the
local time here is not stable, being subject to certain
polital whims such as Pacific Daylight Saving Time. When
it comes to world time I find it natural to think in terms
of UT.
> Take another example. I received a mail yesterday from a
> friend in Sweden who has a Hotmail-address. His mail was
> stamped:
>
> Tue, 09 Mar 1999 04:25:38 PST
>
> *This* I find confusing, and to find out when he wrote
Me too.
> this mail in local, Swedish time, I will first have to
> find out what offset "PST" (Pacific Standard Time, right?)
> has from UT. Not so easy, if you're not familiar with US
> timezones. On the other hand, the three-letter
I thought those were Canadian! <g>
> abbreviation perhaps more clearly indicates you are
> dealing with information showing which timezone the mail
> was written in, than the four-digit variety. I can
> understand the temptation to e.g. subtract eight hours
> from 04.27 in the example above but one should perhaps
> regard the time-stamp and the offset as two separate
> entries. I think this will simplify the understanding of
> the concept.
I agree. The first number indicates the local (political)
time, and the second number points to UT.
Personally, I won't be happy until everybody just uses
UT. Hehe, I used to set my house clocks that way, but
everybody complained so I had to stop. <g> After that I
just had my compter clocks set to UT..... but then I got
complaints from people receiving e-mail into programs
which expected otherwise. It seems I can't win. Everybody
hates UT. <g>
When it comes to the internet I think UT is the only
thing that makes sense unless you are just going to write
to the guy across the street. I for one would prefer to
eliminate the arithmatic when communicating on a world
wide basis. If someone wants to figure out whether I wrote
my mail before breakfast or during dinner they can still
figure that out if they want. (Actually, I live mostly at
night so they would have to ask me personally anyway)
> Anyhow, Nettamer's author clearly has also misunderstood
> this concept, but I haven't found any negative
> side-effects of specifying the offset in the common and
> *correct* way in Nettamer. NT doesn't seem to use this
> offset-value internally in any way.
Yes, when I was using NetTamer, I too found I could just
specify it in the normal (correct) manner. In fact it was
while using NetTamer that I found I was doing it wrong.
Someone complained that they missed my e-mails because
their own program (Eudora for Mac) sorted my mail into the
wrong place in their order of things.
> However, there are other mail-programs who use the offset
> to sort incoming mail according to when they were written,
> recalculated and displayed in your local time. I believe
> I've read that Pegasus for Windows does this, e.g.
Sounds like a mess to me.
So let's all change to Universal Time and get away from
this archaic Pacific-Summer-Christmas-Savings-Dinner-Time
with offset nonsense! <VBG>
Cheers,
Ole Juul
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