Heimo Claasen wrote: > Ach, Bob, if it was that simple... > > > ... just update any workable Linux distribution on that same 486 > > with reasonably current ppp software and you're in business. > > > In a linux workshop here we had _lots_ of problems with M$-tweaked > ISP's ppp, and it gets worse over time.
What options specifically? I've yet to encounter an ISP that couldn't, with a bit of persuasion, work... saving perhaps some of those odd free-net offers that insisted on having a browser filled with ads open. Even those were worked around. So... other than decrying "microsoft ppp" options, WHAT options are they specifically? Can you point me to a web page or other instructions that show the "required" Windows settings for such? > And often enough it's not done with a little job of "updating". If it's a ppp option you require that's not in your version, that's very likely all that is required. Why on earth would any more BE required? You do NOT -- I REPEAT -- you do NOT have to upgrade an entire distribution just because one package (i.e. ppp) is outdated. > (Someone who could tell a lot about the variations of of all sorts of > ISP login/ppp hassles is the - AFAIK only remaining - active > _DOS_-ppp developer who still seems to follow this list.) Again, other than stories of hardship, I'd be very interested in SPECIFICS. (see above) > [...] Sure, yes, ok., it's all _there_ and existing and available. > But so is "legalese"; and the consequences are quite drastic, in > social or sociological terms.) So "Linux is hard." That's not the same thing as "Linux CAN'T." > Which is rather sort of a "cultural" problem. Thus no wonder that > "rant" is part of the outcome. Not liking Linux is fine. Saying it can't do things it can deserves a bit of correction if assistance isn't desired. > And well, there' "ranting" on the SurvPC list(s) too. So what ? (And > who'd never ever have been "guilty" of this ?) At least sometimes, I > find it indeed amusing to read; and there are even informative > elements in it, if not always in strictly technical terms.<g> Sure, well mine's a rant back. I'm not saying don't rant, but don't be surprised to find incorrect information countered! Especially when the counter is regarding HOW TO actually DO SOMETHING... without a full OS/distribution upgrade. > And now for some of the substance. There are still quite some > "regional" problems with net accessibilty even inside a country like > the USA. It just so happens that our lister from behind the Ozarks > seems to be the only one on this list from a typical "rural" US > environment - others may not be present here precisely because of > difficult or too expensive net access; look at any of the more > detailed net "penetration" data of the US (and not to speak of > other[,] exotic places.) Exactly why I bother! There ARE ways to exchange email using only relatively low-speed dial-up links. And there ARE ways to implement packet radio (ham). And there are ways to set up inexpensive community (line-of-sight) wireless networks using 802.11 networks. Why oh why do so many on list spend time griping and moaning rather than actually EXPLORING SOLUTIONS. The whole DOSemu mini-project I did was exactly because "someone" insisted that DOSemu wouldn't handle graphically-intensive programs, network, etc. IT DOES! Not necessarily everything I'm sure, but plenty DOES work. > And while email and (text) browsing are fairly feasible even under > prevailing (social as well as "regional") conditions - and with > rather elementary hardware (as it should be) -, I condider the almost > complete "net dependency" of something as "sophisticated" as system > maintenance a somewhat doubtful condition. You rarely HAVE to update via the network (or update period). But if you can, it's a great way to do it. Again, the older packages are probably fine, and you can certainly buy $2 CDs periodically to update. Or are we talking about a sense of entitlement that makes such users think that because others have broadband, their system should work the same way via slow dial-up? > (Aaahemm, and what do we _see_ with M$'s ".Net" tricks ?) I think our > friend in the Ozarks is quite reasonable when he (1.) does this > mainly offline, and (2.) demands a useful and useable printed manual > for doing this. I would THINK he'd actually be after off-line and low-speed solutions, yet he decrys every option. And printed manuals are usually associated with expensive commercial packages. I find this very insistence rather amusing from any self-described survalist who expects to live independently of any support from the outside. I learned much of what I did from fuzzy 80 column dot-matrix printouts done on a 9 pin printer with no lowercase descenders. What does it matter if the information learned comes from a book, print out or web page? > (Just to remember: you wouldn't have a 'puter only for emailing. > You'd use it for counting, for instance [your beans], or for > trivially writing/printing - it's getting difficult these days to get > hold of an oldfashioned typewriter; hence, how's one to write even > snail ? Though I _do_ know one person who faxes handwritten letters > and manuscripts, to the horror of his friends and > editors/publishers.) That was my very point. Although email is NOT the entire Internet, it's what Day was specifically referring to with his "5 minutes per day" via dial-up scheme (which does NOT have be built by rebels -- it exists in the form of uucp.) > Regrettably, Debian, the most purest and most open and most political > correct of all "distros", and of which Bob is so infatigable the > defendor, is at the same time the most "vulnerable" in that respect - > without good/cheap net access, not much Debian, and not so much of > the most perfect updating facility in this still so imperfect > 'puterworld either. Sorry, but false. Debian works JUST FINE off the CD. If you want more toys, yes... you need to get the packages. Same as with any other operating system. With Debian you can get it free off the 'net though. Perhaps not having it at the local bookstore, next to all the shiny self-help book covers is the problem? It's FREE! > BTW, I tried, honestly, and paid weeks if not months of work time on > it but had to refrain from Debian nevertheless: despite of heaviest > committment from the Linux community around me, it never got the > not-at- all-so-exotic combo of video card and high-res screen > working, which is my excistentially needed gear for pixel treatment - > Unless you really need 3D acceleration, getting framebuffer up and running is fairly straightforward. Sorry, but I'm going to have to wonder about the aptitude of your local LUG if they're stopped dead by such a thing. > "commercial" Mandrake managed that on the fly. So I'm stuck with that > less-than-perfect RPM. As seldom as I use it indeed, it works too. Have you tried the Knoppix bootable CD? It's as good, if not better than MDK at hardware detection. (and FREE!) It's also Debian-based, and can run entirely from CD or from an HD install (assuming your system meets requirements.) You can use Knoppix to detect all your hardware, then simply use those parameters in configuring a "real" distribution. Again, I never said this was all "easy." But certainly not "impossible." > However, I ran into precisely the trap described in the Ozarks - > "updating" [upgrading, in fact] Mozilla wouldn't work without a > major/whole "system" upgrade. RPM distributions are notorious for dependency hell. > And I'm quite sure that a "simple apt-get" would do that in a Debian > system neither. For ME TOO, this example is reason enough for > "ranting", on or off list. Rant, but don't state half- or complete untruths. Attribute your frustrations to your own limitations, and decry the lack of a user-friendly GUI with big, clear buttons. Don't say the software can't do it. It's simple: If you have an older system, or not "modern" hardware, it can be a challenge to get a system running. HOWEVER, once you do and you learn to do it, you can run that same hardware for years without worries about licensing and other hassles. THAT is the payoff! - Bob
