Stuart, We *haven't* been talking about direct electric heat (e.g. radiant baseboards or ceilings), but from a physics standpoint I'm thinking maybe we should. Otherwise we can wind up using words like "efficiency" and simply assuming we are talking about the same thing when we're not. Is the question fraction of energy in converted to heat in house, or fraction of energy used that doesn't do useful work? Are you measuring the energy used at the home's electric meter, or at the power plant (in which case you have to factor in what type of generation, line losses, etc.)?
Measured at the meter, and ignoring the feet of wire between the meter and the house for simplicity, how can direct electric heat be anything other than 100% efficient? Isn't the definition of inefficiency in other electric appliances "heat loss"? How can you have heat loss from a heater? Even if you were trying to heat with a light bulb, you might think the light was inefficient because it wasn't heat, but when those photons deposit their energy as phonons, that is heat too. That is all basic 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, because everything eventually converts to entropy, and entropy is heat. I think the advantages of heat pumps rely on the fact that they are taking heat from one place to another; they are removing heat from outside and putting it inside your house. That process may require less energy than creating the heat inside your house electrically. It does have some other hidden costs like the environmental implications of leaked refrigerants (now with HFCs replacing CFCs, etc.) and embedded energy costs. The question of efficiency plays out differently with these systems as the energy losses (fluid friction, compressor bearings, motor winding temperature rise) don't necessarily contribute to heating your home if the heating is outside the envelope of the house. So then you have to trade off these losses - how much input energy doesn't wind up heating the home - against the extra heat delivered from outside the envelope. Measured by the same standards used above (joules of heat added to home/joules of electricity consumed), heat pumps have the *potential* to be MORE than 100% efficient - but are not guaranteed to be. Things like whether it is installed indoors matter, helping with heating but hurting with cooling. I think because mini splits are typically installed on a wall, this may help their efficiency more than a traditional large outdoor heat pump. Greg Sent from my iPhone On May 9, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Stuart Staniford <[email protected]> wrote: > On May 9, 2015, at 11:04 AM, Tony Del Plato <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think the Tesla battery & electricity in general to heat a home is a long >> shot and certainly not the best, including the contextual reasons cited by >> Karl North. I still think geothermal is the way to go if only to heat a home >> up to 60s, > > Geothermal systems are heat pumps and are powered by electricity. No > electricity, no heat. The electricity is used to move heat “uphill” from a > colder place to a hotter (on the same principle as a refrigerator or an air > conditioner). I don’t believe anyone is advocating using electricity for > heating *except* via heat pumps. > > When it comes to heat pumps, there are two options: ground source (aka > geothermal) which is more efficient but has higher capital costs and requires > space around the building, extensive disruption of the landscape, and space > for ducts in the building, or air source (typically hyper-heating mini splits > these days), which is a little less efficient, but has less impact on the > ground around the building and may fit better into buildings which don’t > already have suitable ducts. Which is better depends on the situation. > > Stuart. > > >> then boost it up to comfort level by any means possible. Conservation via >> insulation it the best way to keep the heat produced. >> tony del plato >> >> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Sustainability in Tompkins County digest >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> SUSTAINABLE_TOMPKINS-L Digest for Friday, May 08, 2015. >>> >>> 1. Fwd: Anti-Wind Bill Introduced in Congress: Speak Up Today! >>> 2. Re: Dwarf fruit trees? >>> 3. Re: Dwarf fruit trees? >>> 4. Fwd: NASA Global Climate Change News: May 2015 >>> 5. LEAF Day Camp Yard Sale: inviting donations! >>> 6. Re: Dwarf fruit trees? >>> 7. Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> 8. Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> 9. FDN's Spring newsletter, The Good Food Exchange >>> 10. Re:Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> 11. Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Fwd: Anti-Wind Bill Introduced in Congress: Speak Up Today! >>> From: [email protected] >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 01:44:57 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ____________________________________ >>> From: [email protected] >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: 5/7/2015 3:57:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time >>> Subj: Anti-Wind Bill Introduced in Congress: Speak Up Today! >>> >>> >>> Hi David, “Hey man, what are you thinking? Why would you do this?” Gary >>> says he would ask Congressman Flores of Texas, who has cosponsored a bill >>> that would eliminate a common-sense renewable energy policy and put his own >>> constituents like him in a precarious position." >>> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> “Hey man, what are you thinking? Why would you do this?” Gary Kanaby >>> says he would ask Representative Flores of Texas. The Congressman has >>> cosponsored a bill that would eliminate a common-sense renewable energy >>> policy and >>> put his own constituents, like Gary, in a precarious position. >>> >>> (http://powerofwind.org/powerofwind/app/take-action?engagementId=98455&ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxXBwr6VlExU2i4LyZjrde7-9swkCUnjU6rk-SopTJ4i0sRUuebdku-V3BP >>> IHfu2jEtkQ4LH7SEu4rmFs8kx49nsBkBTpUzKXci-s2zPcjt3Y&lp=0) >>> _Your legislator may be considering signing on to this bill too – _ >>> (http://powerofwind.org/powerofwind/app/take-action?engagementId=98455&ep=AAAAC2Fl >>> c0NpcGhlcjAxltQzwOAiwKjR0ycgkwX0PK0HFOtTGQuJaaEpPX1hfyUrXo0NklUvMqHLjc_g7gyh >>> hG8rc2pscVzqhseMb2LGaLQ7hU2kX0VQlKpeLbRzhUY&lp=0) _could you please take a >>> moment to send in a quick note?_ >>> (http://powerofwind.org/powerofwind/app/take-action?engagementId=98455&ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAx2TwUPt-ItYvtpGm30fljHlpP >>> AacIvlblsgenplv5W6vt9B1LOXSDSU05IEYGEkd8cPwi0pxmBQgHDR3c_RqAxMTOYh-qwuG9OPQM >>> cA0hvbM&lp=0) Let your legislator know that you oppose this bill, >>> _HR 1901_ >>> (http://cqrcengage.com/powerofwind/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxXKI7EbxiJwM7OKgaXRxP9Hzhg5eamn1W9NYwWN6-2krb4R7Y6VqxSlmvCBqVG7CDoI9MJySR1M >>> yhd1eJQaJnyunstg7BG2nKhLouSIfRuJCuIRb84dWM6v7kpvzotyoQCXrEVGHAikQnwrCOn9zGQK >>> VOuJJOPGSv_b5VnCuXIIRwk67PZWEhmLK259w6YamHBIh-ChUvoI6bT9MSsadLjPQlVwtkTxWCJ4 >>> HnD_5Ke88z14kwPMsexGJTpeLQHuls&lp=0) , that stands in the way of clean >>> energy. >>> >>> Let me tell you a bit more about Gary’s story – >>> >>> Back in 2002, Gary started working in wind energy. He has seen Congress >>> drag its heels on extending this common-sense renewable energy policy – the >>> production tax credit, or “PTC” – several times, and has seen them allow it >>> to expire before renewing it three times. >>> >>> The trend continues today – the PTC expired on December 31st, and we need >>> to push our legislators to renew it. >>> >>> Why? Gary can tell you. He has seen the downturns in the industry when >>> Congress has allowed this policy to expire. >>> >>> "There are several blade service companies here in Texas. One of them had >>> a big blade building business in Gainesville. But with all of the >>> uncertainty in the industry, the business dried up a few years ago. They >>> had to >>> make major layoffs. Now they’re building truck parts. They had to do it to >>> make money. It’s short-sighted to have legislation that hurts wind. >>> Business >>> doesn’t come back after that." >>> >>> “I work for a blade service company now. Part of our business is sending >>> technicians to the sites of new wind projects. As they assemble the rotors, >>> they inspect the blades, and do repairs right there on the spot. The PTC >>> is important to us. It creates work for the future. The more turbines >>> installed now, the more work to service them in the future.” >>> >>> This bill - HR 1901 - threatens to create a repeat of the cycle of job >>> losses, factory closures, and major decreases in the amount of new wind >>> power >>> available to our families. >>> >>> _Please reach out to your legislator today._ >>> (http://powerofwind.org/powerofwind/app/take-action?engagementId=98455&ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxcjC5ROuvRE10 >>> xYGSlZyV6BBxNzPCzEkTByVKdPEtYF2K4eqMMdwRuYvdnkaFiJmZdKVof7nStttSsGlhZNqsQnu6 >>> 7SpcdbvvbrRktrNQuEk&lp=0) Urge opposition to this bill that stands in the >>> way of our progress towards a cleaner, more affordable energy future. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Aaron Severn >>> Senior Director, Federal Legislative Affairs >>> >>> (http://cqrcengage.com/powerofwind/app/take-action?engagementId=76237&ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxiBDVyEujmLMz2xOtKo3EpX8vuO9SJBLoJgG3DnRbXpiSjCa8Bc1rEPfdeX >>> V2wF8vHYAb1pMtCa1PhlTi6fLWMlGu05Ol0QaTAADwJgWO7FA&lp=0) >>> (http://cqrcengage.com/powerofwind/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxL4uIxo4_Pf-HKg3p_pyYltK >>> h9cxFCGcLPj0XC2XOD9cOkxcC4JlHJkouwFsIUGf9BILzO-9AGOrbTjPcbi-EMlzgxhuxtlXhv4n >>> Kcvk7x6UYHr-6g850DWXBqBkXPUA7j4J7yH6pc1o3iRde6pcqqLNkr0pgJZj-jPlavVczlVk&lp= >>> 0) >>> (http://cqrcengage.com/powerofwind/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxpzR9rajdXQdVFgoWkxX1to_cCuGCSAog76Y7JXz-wwRx2nr1G1B_XlFZw5C2oznEH3gK3-v1PotCBicq >>> 4rVw05ul1DiqiDcfWyUn-2keGNZsvFzKGJb5bOaFeeJqXfflLp93oePHTMyqLP8-PCYx3g&lp=0) >>> >>> Power of Wind is leading a community movement for the smarter, fairer >>> energy policies we need to unleash the promise of wind energy. Through our >>> smart advocacy campaigns and partnership with wind energy experts at the >>> American Wind Energy Association, we have the power to get our message >>> heard >>> loud and clear by elected leaders: The time is now for a cleaner, more >>> affordable energy future. >>> Power of Wind | 1501 M Street NW | Washington, DC >>> _www.powerofwind.org_ >>> (http://cqrcengage.com/powerofwind/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxdYfhcRgqcgFjVcugCAk9ds3cJyob30md7WxgOF4Bh1z1eNcPOW3idjKs0rfY8G5 >>> _qp2fGAnmYe9gE4HnVgCiUQswZtzxqfxHmQGCwGWf06knPKb6RyEvlp_08T7GJK9zbjaXxCgJzwt >>> zD1JtXzBMrQ&lp=0) >>> >>> _Unsubscribe_ >>> (http://cqrcengage.com/powerofwind/app/subscriptions?r=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxr-HqODv-8jY3RFZCtb7VGDiEFjIhJTUo9g5T6C4m0uA) >>> (http://cqrcengage.com/powerofwind/app/thru?ep=AAAAC2Flc0NpcGhlcjAxB19S5AbgSTs3vgw-7YR >>> O0nIA466JIKsYFu-HEUJ4XNSxBNHag0P8rB8eoA_WJOq_uImNllkSK5e0uLDfxviAQKBI4GsSNGx >>> cfpiu4WgtASbkbzJ8Bb8ZaAIaDPxG6jBt&lp=0) >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Re: Dwarf fruit trees? >>> From: Jon Bosak <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 08:45:10 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 2 >>> >>> I second the reference to Cummins -- they rock. But to get just what >>> you want, you have to place orders in the fall. >>> >>> Indian Creek is the same place, BTW. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> On 2015-05-07 8:54 PM, Patricia Haines wrote: >>> > Does anyone have a suggestion for a good place to purchase these? >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, >>> > please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ >>> > If you have questions about this list please contact the list manager, >>> > Tom Shelley, at [email protected]. >>> > >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Re: Dwarf fruit trees? >>> From: Patricia Haines <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 10:01:56 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 3 >>> >>> Thanks to everyone! We clearly have a lot to learn about the rhythm of >>> planting! >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> > On May 8, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Jon Bosak <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > I second the reference to Cummins -- they rock. But to get just what >>> > you want, you have to place orders in the fall. >>> > >>> > Indian Creek is the same place, BTW. >>> > >>> > Jon >>> > >>> >> On 2015-05-07 8:54 PM, Patricia Haines wrote: >>> >> Does anyone have a suggestion for a good place to purchase these? >>> >> >>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >>> >> For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, >>> >> please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ >>> >> If you have questions about this list please contact the list manager, >>> >> Tom Shelley, at [email protected]. >>> >> >>> > >>> > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, >>> > please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ >>> > If you have questions about this list please contact the list manager, >>> > Tom Shelley, at [email protected]. >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Fwd: NASA Global Climate Change News: May 2015 >>> From: Regi Teasley <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 10:19:15 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 4 >>> >>> Lots of interesting information here. >>> Regi >>> >>> >>> "Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love >>> everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things." Dostoyevsky. >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> > From: NASA's Climate Change Newsletter <[email protected]> >>> > Date: May 7, 2015 at 2:13:14 PM EDT >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: NASA Global Climate Change News: May 2015 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > TOP STORIES › >>> > Update: Carbon dioxide concentration >>> > Latest measurement at about 400 ppm >>> > Update: Sea level change >>> > Latest measurement at about 64 mm (about 2.5 inches) >>> > What about Arctic mammals? >>> > How longer melt season is a game changer >>> > Blog: Rainbow of hope >>> > Are more people paying attention to Earth's climate? >>> > The votes are in >>> > NASA climate wins two 2015 Webby Awards >>> > Is it a moist soil world? >>> > SMAP mission produces first global maps >>> > Ocean sentinel >>> > Jason-3 mission to add to sea level data >>> > A green breakthrough >>> > Caltech grad student discovers new, sustainable catalyst >>> > Blog: Give peas a chance >>> > You never know what might unfold >>> > Four Corners methane mystery >>> > Scientists investigate "hot spot" detected from space >>> > Decoding climate change >>> > Understanding water vapor in a warming world >>> > Blog: All the drops add up >>> > Individual actions ultimately make a difference >>> > Moisture on the move >>> > How water vapor can lead to warmer, wetter Arctic >>> > In shorter supply >>> > California snowpack 40 percent of 2014 >>> > A vortex-driven cold snap >>> > The 2013-2014 event adds data points to the books >>> > LATEST IMAGES › >>> > >>> > >>> > Tucscon, Arizona, expands rapidly › >>> > >>> > Dragon Lake sits along Angara River › >>> > >>> > Ice melts on Matterhorn › >>> > >>> > About Us >>> > NASA's Global Climate Change website is produced by the Earth Science >>> > Communications Team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory / California >>> > Institute of Technology. To learn more, visit our website at >>> > http://climate.nasa.gov/. >>> > >>> > >>> > Feedback? >>> > Email us: >>> > [email protected]. >>> > >>> > >>> > Share >>> > Follow NASA Climate Change on Facebook, Twitter and Google+ for regular >>> > updates. Or forward this email to a friend. >>> > >>> > >>> > Unsubscribe >>> > If you no longer wish to receive these updates, you can unsubscribe here. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: LEAF Day Camp Yard Sale: inviting donations! >>> From: Patricia Haines <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 10:32:58 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 5 >>> >>> Spring cleaning? Want a worthy place to recycle your books, CDs, furniture, >>> garden tools, whatever? >>> >>> I can store donations now for our annual June sale. >>> >>> LEAF Camp is entirely volunteer-led and free for developmentally challanged >>> adults (18+). Sessions this year are July 26-31 and August 13-16, 10-4 each >>> day, at Robert Treman Park. To volunteer or register: SUSAN FRANKLIN >>> <[email protected]>. >>> >>> LEAF is sponsored by WeACT, Unity House's self-advocacy group, in >>> collaboration with the Level Green Institute. >>> >>> Patricia Haines Gooding, Level Green >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Re: Dwarf fruit trees? >>> From: Micheal Wheeler <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 10:47:17 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 6 >>> >>> I remember hearing good things about Miller Nurseries in Canandagua, but >>> looking them up I find they've retired and sold out to Starks >>> <http://www.starkbros.com/about/miller-nurseries>. >>> Anyway, Starks recommended spring planting time for zone 5A is next week. >>> Seems to me rather late for planting trees. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Patricia Haines <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Thanks to everyone! We clearly have a lot to learn about the rhythm of >>> > planting! >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> > > On May 8, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Jon Bosak <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > I second the reference to Cummins -- they rock. But to get just what >>> > > you want, you have to place orders in the fall. >>> > > >>> > > Indian Creek is the same place, BTW. >>> > > >>> > > Jon >>> > > >>> > >> On 2015-05-07 8:54 PM, Patricia Haines wrote: >>> > >> Does anyone have a suggestion for a good place to purchase these? >>> > >> >>> > >>> > >>> -- >>> “After the ecstasy, the laundry.” - Jack Kornfield >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> From: Stuart Staniford <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 11:06:51 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 7 >>> >>> >>> On May 7, 2015, at 6:59 PM, Shawn Reeves <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> > Everyone should know it should be considered kooky to try to heat your >>> > home using PV. So that straw man should not be made. >>> >>> I am doing exactly this at my house. It’s reasonably cost effective to use >>> heat pumps to heat a house now, and reasonably cost effective (net of >>> subsidies) to supply electricity from one’s own solar, so this is readily >>> feasible to heat a house with PV (on a grid-tied net basis). It takes some >>> space for that much solar, however, so not likely to be viable downtown. >>> Needless to say, the Tesla battery is nowhere near large enough to get >>> through the winter production lulls in such a situation so it doesn’t make >>> a lot of sense for me. >>> >>> Nonetheless, Tesla has apparently sold out the first six months of >>> production, so it must make sense to someone somewhere (I’m guessing >>> commercial operations where it allows arbitrage between peak and off-peak >>> rates). >>> >>> > The sun will gladly heat your home directly if you let it in. >>> >>> It’s certainly true that passive solar design is an excellent option for >>> new construction in suitable locations. However, most of the buildings >>> with which we must meet climate change are already existing, and usually >>> poorly suited to passive solar, so other options are required too. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Stuart. >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> From: Karl S North <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 12:51:53 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 8 >>> >>> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Sustainability in Tompkins County digest < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> > Subject: Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> > From: Shawn Reeves <[email protected]> >>> > Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 18:59:34 -0400 >>> > X-Message-Number: 5 >>> > >>> > I have yet to read a news article written by someone who understands >>> > electrical power and energy well, except of course in industry journals. >>> > >>> >>> And even industry experts fail to understand the political economics of >>> the resource depletion that is already visibly impinging on our society. >>> Not the experts fault - they get their economics from the mainstream >>> economists, who reject the very idea of failing finite resources impinging >>> on market prices or anything else. >>> >>> So Shawn is right - it is nuts to use electricity, solar or other, to >>> heat anything in your house, as will soon become painfully evident. >>> >>> And Dontcha just love Bloomberg's deceptive boosterism for Tesla batteries! >>> The lead batteries in my solar electric rig put out the same 2kw as a Tesla >>> wall pack, at a price of $2k vs $13k for a Tesla once their promotional >>> discount ends. >>> >>> Although I feel no loss of quality of life using only 2 kw, according to >>> Bloomberg-think 2kw is way too little to power the average home, but they >>> say don't worry, battery prices will drop. Unfortunately dropping battery >>> prices will soon end when they run up against a global economy permanently >>> in decline due to resource depletion and an aging and unreplaceable >>> industrial infrastructure. The shrinking economy in our energy descent era >>> will simultaneously raise battery costs and reduce our incomes and ability >>> to buy them. >>> >>> And Re: >>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-28/tesla-to-use-north-american-material-amid-pollution-worry >>> -- more Bloombergthink. But hey, it's nice to see a smidgin of concern for >>> the millions of Africans killed by our empire's wars of control over the >>> Congolese cobalt Tesla needs for its batteries. Maybe next Bloomberg can >>> find the courage to print an article on the endless lakes of radioactive >>> toxic waste that are a "side effect" (but in China - so out of sight out of >>> mind) of our "need" for iridium, paladium, platinum and rhodium, for our >>> electronic devices. >>> >>> So enough already with the super-size malted milkshake mentality! It will >>> soon be obsolete! >>> >>> -- >>> Karl North - http://karlnorth.com/ >>> "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying >>> "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon. >>> "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son >>> will ride a camel." >>> —Saudi saying >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: FDN's Spring newsletter, The Good Food Exchange >>> From: Meaghan Sheehan Rosen <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 12:56:56 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 9 >>> >>> From: Friendship Donations Network <[email protected]> >>> >>> Friendship Donations Network's Spring newsletter is hot off the press! >>> Check it out here: The Good Food Exchange: Spring 2015 >>> <http://friendshipdonations.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/GFX_Spring15_Final.pdf> >>> >>> Contents include: A Holiday Food Rescue Story; 2015 Neighborhood Food Hubs; >>> a Note from the FDN Board President; Park Foundation Grant; and Thank You >>> to our 2014 donors. >>> --- >>> Meaghan Sheehan Rosen, Program Coordinator >>> Friendship Donations Network: *Rescuing Food, Reducing Hunger* >>> 607.216.9522 | [email protected] | www.friendshipdonations.org >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Re:Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> From: "Michael Miles" <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 13:29:00 -0600 >>> X-Message-Number: 10 >>> >>> I have to agree with Stuart Staniford on this one and think that using >>> electricity to heat our house is reasonable. It's all in the details. >>> Using heat pumps (especially with a ground source loop rather than an air >>> source) is much more efficient than standard electric resistance heat. >>> Perhaps the later is what comes to mind first when we think of using >>> electricity for heat and readily discount it. Yes, electric resistance >>> heat, for a whole house heading scenario is very bad (and expensive). If >>> you combine a ground-sourced heat pump with added insulation, better >>> windows, etc. you can make it very attractive. Anyway, how else is one to >>> heat a house... with natural gas, propane, and oil which depend on >>> non-renewable resources? Wood is not a good option since it is not a >>> scalable solution. Passive solar is a good way to reduce heating load if >>> you are building a new home AND can ideally position your house to maximize >>> the passive solar effect. IMO, high efficiency heat pumps are the future >>> especially when combined with a tight home and renewable electricity >>> source, such as solar and wind. >>> >>> Michael Miles >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> From: "Karl S North" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 12:53 PM >>> To: "Sustainability in Tompkins County" >>> <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re:[sustainable_tompkins-l] Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That >>> Well With Solar >>> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Sustainability in Tompkins County >>> digest <[email protected]> wrote: Subject: Re: >>> Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> From: Shawn Reeves <[email protected]> >>> Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 18:59:34 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 5 >>> >>> I have yet to read a news article written by someone who understands >>> electrical power and energy well, except of course in industry journals. >>> >>> And even industry experts fail to understand the political economics of >>> the resource ?depletion that is already visibly impinging on our society. >>> Not the experts fault - they get their economics from the mainstream >>> economists, who reject the very idea of failing finite resources impinging >>> on market prices or anything else. >>> ?So Shawn is right - it is nuts to use electricity?, solar or other, to >>> heat anything in your house, as will soon become painfully evident. >>> >>> And Dontcha just love Bloomberg's deceptive boosterism for Tesla >>> batteries! The lead batteries in my solar electric rig put out the same 2kw >>> as a Tesla wall pack, at a price of $2k vs $13k for a Tesla once their >>> promotional discount ends. >>> >>> Although I feel no loss of quality of life using only 2 kw, according to >>> Bloomberg-think 2kw is way too little to power the average home, but they >>> say don't worry, battery prices will drop. Unfortunately dropping battery >>> prices will soon end when they run up against a global economy permanently >>> in decline due to resource depletion and an aging and unreplaceable >>> industrial infrastructure. The shrinking economy in our energy descent era >>> will simultaneously raise battery costs and reduce our incomes and ability >>> to buy them. >>> >>> And Re: >>> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-28/tesla-to-use-north-american-material-amid-pollution-worry >>> -- more Bloombergthink. But hey, it's nice to see a smidgin of concern for >>> the millions of Africans killed by our empire's wars of control over the >>> Congolese cobalt Tesla needs for its batteries. Maybe next Bloomberg can >>> find the courage to print an article on the endless lakes of radioactive >>> toxic waste that are a "side effect" (but in China - so out of sight out of >>> mind) of our "need" for iridium, paladium, platinum and rhodium, for our >>> electronic devices. >>> >>> So enough already with the super-size malted milkshake mentality! It will >>> soon be obsolete! >>> >>> -- Karl North - http://karlnorth.com/ "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban >>> saying "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon. "My >>> father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will >>> ride a camel." -Saudi saying >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Subject: Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> From: Gay Nicholson <[email protected]> >>> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:39:34 -0400 >>> X-Message-Number: 11 >>> >>> And if folks want to learn more about combining heat pumps with renewable >>> sources of electricity, you can watch the video of our "Building and >>> Heating With the Climate in Mind" presentation to the Town of Dryden last >>> winter. >>> >>> https://sustainabletompkins.org/st-events/building-and-heating-with-the-climate-in-mind/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------- >>> Gay Nicholson, Ph.D. >>> President >>> Sustainable Tompkins >>> 309 N. Aurora St. >>> Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> www.sustainabletompkins.org >>> 607-533-7312 (home office) >>> 607-220-8991 (cell) >>> 607-272-1720 (ST office) >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Michael Miles <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > I have to agree with Stuart Staniford on this one and think that using >>> > electricity to heat our house is reasonable. It's all in the details. >>> > Using heat pumps (especially with a ground source loop rather than an air >>> > source) is much more efficient than standard electric resistance heat. >>> > Perhaps the later is what comes to mind first when we think of using >>> > electricity for heat and readily discount it. Yes, electric resistance >>> > heat, for a whole house heading scenario is very bad (and expensive). If >>> > you combine a ground-sourced heat pump with added insulation, better >>> > windows, etc. you can make it very attractive. Anyway, how else is one to >>> > heat a house... with natural gas, propane, and oil which depend on >>> > non-renewable resources? Wood is not a good option since it is not a >>> > scalable solution. Passive solar is a good way to reduce heating load if >>> > you are building a new home AND can ideally position your house to >>> > maximize >>> > the passive solar effect. IMO, high efficiency heat pumps are the future >>> > especially when combined with a tight home and renewable >>> > electricity source, such as solar and wind. >>> > >>> > Michael Miles >>> > >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > *From*: "Karl S North" <[email protected]> >>> > *Sent*: Friday, May 08, 2015 12:53 PM >>> > *To*: "Sustainability in Tompkins County" < >>> > [email protected]> >>> > *Subject*: Re:[sustainable_tompkins-l] Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work >>> > That Well With Solar >>> > >>> > >>> > On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Sustainability in Tompkins County digest >>> > <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Subject: Re: Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar >>> >> From: Shawn Reeves <[email protected]> >>> >> Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 18:59:34 -0400 >>> >> X-Message-Number: 5 >>> >> >>> >> I have yet to read a news article written by someone who understands >>> >> electrical power and energy well, except of course in industry journals. >>> >> >>> > >>> > And even industry experts fail to understand the political economics of >>> > the resource ?depletion that is already visibly impinging on our society. >>> > Not the experts fault - they get their economics from the mainstream >>> > economists, who reject the very idea of failing finite resources impinging >>> > on market prices or anything else. >>> > >>> > ?So Shawn is right - it is nuts to use electricity?, solar or other, to >>> > heat anything in your house, as will soon become painfully evident. >>> > >>> > And Dontcha just love Bloomberg's deceptive boosterism for Tesla >>> > batteries! The lead batteries in my solar electric rig put out the same >>> > 2kw >>> > as a Tesla wall pack, at a price of $2k vs $13k for a Tesla once their >>> > promotional discount ends. >>> > >>> > Although I feel no loss of quality of life using only 2 kw, according to >>> > Bloomberg-think 2kw is way too little to power the average home, but they >>> > say don't worry, battery prices will drop. Unfortunately dropping battery >>> > prices will soon end when they run up against a global economy permanently >>> > in decline due to resource depletion and an aging and unreplaceable >>> > industrial infrastructure. The shrinking economy in our energy descent era >>> > will simultaneously raise battery costs and reduce our incomes and ability >>> > to buy them. >>> > >>> > And Re: >>> > http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-28/tesla-to-use-north-american-material-amid-pollution-worry >>> > -- more Bloombergthink. But hey, it's nice to see a smidgin of concern for >>> > the millions of Africans killed by our empire's wars of control over the >>> > Congolese cobalt Tesla needs for its batteries. Maybe next Bloomberg can >>> > find the courage to print an article on the endless lakes of radioactive >>> > toxic waste that are a "side effect" (but in China - so out of sight out >>> > of >>> > mind) of our "need" for iridium, paladium, platinum and rhodium, for our >>> > electronic devices. >>> > >>> > So enough already with the super-size malted milkshake mentality! It will >>> > soon be obsolete! >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Karl North - http://karlnorth.com/ >>> > "Pueblo que canta no morira" - Cuban saying >>> > "They only call it class warfare when we fight back" - Anon. >>> > "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son >>> > will ride a camel." >>> > —Saudi saying >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> >>> END OF DIGEST >> >> >> >> -- >> “It is only when you see a mosquito landing on your testicles that you >> realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence”. >> Lao-Tzu > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ If you have questions about this list please contact the list manager, Tom Shelley, at [email protected].
