Thanks cous', I'm just getting too old and crusty and life is too short to keep dealing with the same old crap, over and over again.
While life does have its requisite repetetive aspects, this kind of stuff does nothing but prevent moving forward....millstones around the neck of the world. Todd Swearingen ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 1:25 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Cornell University study debunks ethanol > >What gives, you ask? > > > >Are you sure about the date? Pimental and his disciples have been > >propigating this "data" for considerably longer than that. > > > >And just as sure as each new moon comes up in the east, its > >Pimental fragmented reasoning that gets "debunked," here and > >across the face of the planet. > > > >Keith could probably quickly point you to a number of articles > >and posts that reveal many of the flaws of this > >....uhhhhh....hemmmmm........"study." > > > >It gets damned old though, dropping everything everytime this > >issue comes up, to keep the errors from being unknowingly spread. > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > Especially since we've told Mr Womplex this before. Waste of time, I > think. It's all in the archives, five or six times, but I'll spell it > out all over again, and not be too surprised if he doesn't read it > and asks the same question again next month. > > Keith > > > 2 Sept 2002: > > > >The Journey > > >to Forever website doesn't pay enough attention to putting this > > >capability into the hands of the general public. Their webpages > > >concentrate on using only the starch. No wonder ethanol as an > > >alternative fuel is not convincing enough people -- Not even the guys > > >who build their own stills are going as far as they could. > > > > > >To add to that, we have guys from the University of Pennsylvania > > >publishing scientific articles telling the public that using corn to > > >make ethanol is a ZERO net producer of energy. Most people just give > > >up when they hear that. > > > >Cornell University, not Pennsylvania, his name is David Pimentel. > >"Scientific articles" is stretching it more than somewhat. There's a > >lot of info at Journey to Forever about it, including several > >complete debunkings, there's been LOTS of discussion about it here > >(the last four days ago - see "Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol economics"), > >and these resources have been used to counter Pimentel's BS in quite > >a few instances. And you? > > And: > > >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:52:09 +0900 > >Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol economics > >Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > >Bravo, Todd, nicely done! > > > >There's a lot more Pimentel debunking here: > >http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html > >Is ethanol energy-efficient? > > > >New report: > > > >"Corn ethanol is energy efficient... For every BTU dedicated to > >producing ethanol there is a 34 percent energy gain," the study said. > > > >"Only about 17 percent of the energy used to produce ethanol comes > >from liquid fuels, such as gasoline and diesel fuel. For every 1 BTU > >of liquid fuel used to produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 BTU gain," > >the researchers added. > > > >http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/17186/story.h tm > > From stalk to fuel tank, ethanol a net energy gain > > > >Here's the RNA's report on the study: > >http://www.ethanolrfa.org/pr020801b.html > > > >... "Only Dr. Pimentel disagrees with this analysis. But his outdated > >work has been refuted by experts from entities as diverse as the > >USDA, DOE, Argonne National Laboratory, Michigan State University, > >and the Colorado School of Mines. While the opponents of ethanol will > >no doubt continue to peddle Pimentel's baseless charges, they are > >absolutely without credibility." > > > >The full study is here - alas, more web-clutter, yet another pdf > >file, the kudzu of the Internet (5225kb): > >http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-813.pdf > > > >Best > > > >Keith > > > > > > >The following is response to an off-list inquiry made about an > > >article based upon David Pimental's representations as to > > >ethanols dis-economics. It might make better sense to read the > > >original inquiry first, then the response. > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > >............................. > > > > > >Dear [snip], > > > > > >First, I would care to enquire as to what your relationship and > > >interest to the study, Pimental and any other researchers may be. > > > > > >Second, a person need not be expert in any particular field to > > >discern that Pimental's study is largely lacking in multiple > > >areas. Due diligence is sufficient to reveal many of the flaws. > > >You can take one look at the article, make one call to your > > >nearest ag agent, put pen to paper and determine that his > > >calculations are all too frequently derived from inflated > > >assumptions, perspectives and allocations. > > > > > >One could start with the premise that the average gasoline > > >powered automobile in the US only achieves a fuel economy of > > >~11.74 miles per gallon. That is gravely erroneous. > > > > > >One could continue with the premise that it takes 11 acres to > > >grow enough ethanol to propel same vehicle 10,000 miles each > > >year. At a national average of ~120 bushels of corn/acre, > > >yielding almost exactly 2.5 gallons per bushel, Mr. Pimental > > >suggests that it will take 7.16 acres to grow enough fuel to > > >produce the 852 gallons that will be derived from the remaining > > >2.84 acres. This in itself does not jibe with Mr. Pimental's > > >energy input/output ratios. > > > > > >One could also take into consideration the negative impact that > > >Pimental gives to agricultural subsidies while attributing no > > >weight to fossil fuels subsidies and the costs resulting from > > >them. This is an uneven and inappropriate tactic. Apples to > > >apples is the appropriate method, not pears to squirrels. > > > > > >One could point out that Mr. Pimental makes no effort to > > >ameliorate the production cost of ethanol by including the > > >principal co-products of corn-based ethanol manufacture - oil, > > >soap stock, lecithin and brewers' grains. In fact, Mr. Pimental > > >would like to leave anyone who reads his "study" or articles > > >based upon his "study" believing that only ethanol is produced > > >from corn, therefore all costs and energy inputs/outputs should > > >be assessed soley against the ethanol fraction. > > > > > >This is bogus, which any statistician, bean counter, economist > > >or 1st year middle school student knows. > > > > > >The declaration also is made that it takes 11 acres to feed seven > > >Americans. It is obvious by such a claim that Mr. Pimental is at > > >best deriving his numbers from a heavily impalanced, factory > > >farmed, meat centered diet where the majority of the acreage is > > >used to produce grains and other feed for livestock, not humans. > > >This in itself shows a severe bias towards inflated numbers and > > >gives one cause to question if total exports of agricultural > > >products were subtracted from his equations prior to their > > >concoction. > > > > > >Throw in this "whopper" for good measure. Total US dry land mass > > >is 3,536,278 square miles, or 2,263,217,920 acres. Pimental's own > > >numbers and those from the article include that the average auto > > >travels 10,000 miles, consuming 852 gallons of ethanol (if E-100 > > >powered), that the average acre produces 126.96 bushels of corn, > > >that the average yield of ethanol per bushel is 2.58 gallons, > > >that the energy ratio is 1.70 to 1.0 (2.70 total gallons of > > >ethanol per gallon produced) and that 97% of the US land mass > > >would have to be planted in corn to meet this demand. (That's > > >total land mass, not just arable land.) > > > > > >(2,263,217,920 x 126.96 x 2.58) / (832 x 2.7) = 330,009,090 > > >"average" automobiles traversing the US, at 10,000 miles each. > > > > > >Oddly, the poplulation of the US is ~281,421,906 (year 2000 > > >census, excluding service men and women overseas). Equally as odd > > >is that US automobile insurers rate the average driver at ~10,000 > > >miles annually. Subtracting from the population those youth not > > >yet of driving age (under 16 years old) leaves you with > > >217,149147 persons old enough to drive. Subtracting the > > >population older than 80 years of age leaves you with > > >~207,964,163 persons capable of driving the requisite 10,000 > > >miles per year. > > > > > >That makes Pimental's numbers incredulously inflated by 36.98% - > > >a rather large margin of miscalculation. Couple that with an > > >obviously errant average fuel economy of 11.74 mpg when 20 mpg is > > >closer to realistic. That's an approximate 41.32% total > > >consumption error, bringing the total land mass "necessarily" > > >covered by maize down to ~40.08%. Multiply that times the ~63.02% > > >of actual drivers, rather than Pimental's 36.98% inflated number, > > >and you come up with ~25.26% of the total land mass covered by > > >corn, not the 97% that is mis-represented. > > > > > >(I wonder if Pimental would consider the difference > > >"significant?") > > > > > >Couple all of these errors made by Pimental with fuel economy > > >constantly being on the rise and you begin to see even more > > >monumental reductions in Pimental's mis-representations. Aside > > >from the fact that Pimental was heavily in error when he first > > >presented his "study," he and it are even more irrelevant with > > >each new hybrid or fuel efficient Jetta, Geo or other auto that > > >goes into circulation. > > > > > >Yet numerous people off-handedly accept Pimental's "study" > > >without much question. Why? Because he has a few letters dangling > > >from his last name? > > > > > >As I said before [Snip], even a 1st year middle school student > > >could legitimately poke holes in Pimental's work, which is > > >largely what has been occurring since it came out. > > > > > >Maybe you know of a person or two who would be interested in a > > >gravy masters or doctoral thesis? > > > > > >Hope the perspectives help. It's time for me to "clock back in." > > > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: <[snip]> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 7:17 AM > > >Subject: ethanol economics > > > > > > > > > > Hi Todd, > > > > > > > > Would you please review an article on a study by Prof. David > > >Pimentel on the > > > > uneconomical use of ethanol as a fuel? The article is at > > > > www.unisci.com/stories/20013/0813012.htm. > > > > > > > > If you would please detail your response to the main points in > > >the article, > > > > I would greatly appreciate your expert viewpoints. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > [snip] > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: womplex_oo1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > >Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 11:36 PM > >Subject: [biofuel] Cornell University study debunks ethanol > > > > > > > In late 2001 a Cornell Univerity scientist published a paper > > > concluding that it took more energy to harvest, ferment and > >distill > > > corn than was yielded as ethanol. Specifically it took 131,000 > >Btu > > > to produce a gallon of ethanol while that gallon only contained > > > 77,000 Btu, representing a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu per > >gallon. > > > > > > The study concluded that petroleum was used to produce a lesser > > > amount of ethanol (41 percent less) and what this essentially > > > represented was a system of subsidized food burning, which also > > > degraded the quality of the land dedicated to corn as an energy > >crop. > > > > > > An energy loss of 41 percent seems like a huge barrier to > >overcome to > > > make this process worthwhile, i.e. to use ethanol to make a > >larger > > > amount of ethanol. Could there be a different crop that would > >be > > > better than corn? Perhaps cord grass (spartina alterniflora)? > > > Perhaps the study failed to account for waste lignin as boiler > >fuel? > > > > > > What gives? > > > Yahoo! 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