Hi MM,
The number they give for hydrogen is 10%, you get 100 and put in 90 in the electrolyses. This is a single step process and if you define efficiency as "from well to wheel" and use hydrogen as energy source for process, you get 0.25% assuming fuel cells with 50% efficiency. (Only need to know how to multiply -:) ) Since it can be discussed if 50% for fuel cells might be in the high end, 0.25% could be that also. The energy hydrogen is present in the media, so it is not a question of getting something from nowhere. I am not really clear in what you mean by physics, I thought it was chemistry. Moving energy does not necessarily involves real gains, but can make more of it available for a certain purpose and this constitutes a gain. Heat pumps is an excellent example of this, where you under certain conditions move 3 times more energy than you need for the moving process. (That is physics, I think) Hakan At 10:36 AM 1/5/2003 -0800, you wrote: >What are you guys talking about? > >There is no energy conversion that I'm aware that adds energy out of >nowhere (i.e., that violates the laws of physics as they are presently >discussed). Maybe your use of the word "gain" is meant to be >something different? > >I took Hakan's .25% figure to be hard to understand. If he was >talking about energy conversion efficiency, while I've understood >electrolysis to be inefficient to the point of being problematic and >not economical, I doubt that it's only .25% efficient (99.75% >inefficient) (maybe it is, could be, I guess), so I wasn't sure how >else he could mean his figure. Maybe he meant 25% and not .25%? > > >On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:07:05 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >True. I just didn't put that in cause I was looking at a more acceptance > >issue. But yes, until there is a net energy GAIN, there won't even be > >large production, or it will be expensive; both cost and energy wise. > >James Slayden > > > >On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: > > > >> > >> Success of hydrogen is going to depend on its energy net gain. The > >> current > >> over all 0.25% through electrolyses, has only been improved with platinum > >> as catalyzer. If they find something, it can be improved with 3 to 4 > >> times > >> and be better or as good as gasoline and diesel. > >> > >> Hakan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
