Damian J. Anderson wrote: >Hakan, > >What I said was exactly this: > > If it is a government of the people, by the people, for the > people, then it is a democracy. A society in which the people > do not have the option to change their government if they don't > like it is not a democracy. What democracies are there in the > Middle East? I would count Israel and Turkey, but the others > are for the most part desert satrapies. > >For you to suggest that I consider Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy to be >democratic is outright dishonest.
That is not what he said, and for you to say this in return is outright dishonest. >It seems to me that many European greens are more like watermelons: >green on the outside, red on the inside. And so is that. >One of the first things that Hitler did on coming to power was to ensure >his position as an absolute ruler, and within six months, had begun the >process of building concentration camps. He was more of the variety of >"one man, one vote, one time". That is not democracy. If the people >cannot recall an evil ruler through elections it is not a democracy. > >One reason that Hitler lost the war was that he ran out of oil to fuel >his tanks. Towards the end when General George S. Patton was striking >out across Europe to liberate the nations under the tyranny of Hitler, >including the concentration camp at Aushwitz, he saw that the Germans >had to resort to ox-carts because they had no fuel. "Hitler", "he", his" - so telling, just like "Saddam", "he", "his" these days, and you do that too. Anyway, Hakan is right, and you're wrong. For instance, one of any number, from the archives (but you don't like the archives much it seems): > "One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for >going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's >synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of >Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down >into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He >brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected >this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal >as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version >of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As >the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he >couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he >realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had >been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, >alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took >his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to >Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and >it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest >synthetic fuels producer globally." >To its credit, the USA fought tyranny and defended freedom for the >community of civilized nations in several conflicts in the twentieth >century: World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Cold War, the Gulf >War, and so on. It sacrificed blood and treasure for the sake of liberty, >the liberty that ensures that you can criticize it today, rather than >live under the Gestapo, or the KGB, or the iron fist of one tyrant or >another. Was Sweden able or willing to defend itself, or would you be >happy to live under Marxist Leninist or Nazi or Fascist totalitarianism? >Are you willing to pay the price today for liberty, or are you happy to >have someone else pay the bill and you stand on the sidelines and snipe? >We have a word for that: cowardice. Yes, yes, yes, we've had all this thoroughgoing nonsense (yes!) before, I warned you not to trot it all out all over again and bore everyone to tears, but of course you know better. >Whether we like it or not, the availability of oil for fuel for >transportation, and petroleum for petrochemicals is a matter of national >security and survival for modern society, until such time as we have >viable sustainable economical alternatives. Funny how you ignored the information about the real price of oil. And go on and on about biofuels being uneconomical - try to hoist aboard the very obvious, if somewhat inconvenient, fact that the economics of energy is not important, it very much takes second place to politics, especially in the US. If it's politically desirable, it will be rendered economical, and that's that. You also rather conveniently miss the point that the US uses twice as much energy per capita as any other OECD nation, and they use far too much, so your attempting to lump US wastefulness (and all the rest of it) into the "survival of modern society" and so on is crap, and highly obnoxious to the majority of humans who come from non-OECD countries. Not only must they (we actually) put up with your wastefulness but it seems we must devote our land to growing lots of trees so that you can go right on being so wasteful without wrecking the climate (which you'd do anyway). >Perhaps the reason George Bush did not invest in biofuels research is that >he is taking advice from the Department of Energy who suggested hydrogen >as a good long term alternative to fossil fuels. It requires energy to >produce biofuels. The question one must consider is how much energy does >it take to produce a gallon of corn oil, or ethanol. One must analyze >the energy requirements to produce these fuels. When ethanol was first >produced as a fuel, it required more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol >than was contained in a gallon of ethanol. The ratio is better now, >on the order of 34% more energy in the fuel than it took to produce it. > >You can find some interesting facts on the subject at: > > http://www.ethanol.org/ This list is WAY ahead of you. >But make no mistake, whoever provides biofuels will have to be a >big business, as you need to create a vast infrastructure to deliver >whatever kind of fuel that vehicles run on, unless you are planning on >someone else's tax dollars to fund it. If you have to drive 300 miles >to the nearest filling station when you have a vehicle with a range of >200 miles, you are out of luck. That is unless you plan to use it as a >hippy hobbyist grow-your-own kind of fuel to avoid taxation, and voice >your protest to the evil capitalists. ;-) This list is WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of you, it's not even worth discussing it with you until you've educated yourself a bit, or perhaps a lot. If you'd taken a bit of time to check out the archives and see where we're at you wouldn't be making such an idiot of yourself. Because you are. You're also very naive. >I can't think of a system better than capitalism. Marxism was tried and >failed miserably. Free markets of free people seems like the only sensible >way to go. And then free trade blocks between free peoples is the next >logical step. Even the Chinese and the Russians are becoming capitalists. My word, you can sure trundle out all the old knee-jerk stuff, eh? >I came to this group because I saw something online about biofuels >and I was curious about it, but it seems to me that for many of you, >it is an article of religion, and anyone who questions your dogmas >is anathema, and deserves to be shunned. That's what you've been doing, along with ignoring whatever's said in response that doesn't agree with you. >Hence I was called a troll, >people ridiculed my name, and your hatred for America and all it stands >for shows through. Um, you appear not to have noticed, among many other things, that most of them are Americans. Hakan isn't an American, but he's lived there and worked there, and he most definitely likes Americans. You suffer from what's called the common bipolar disorder, "us vs them" thinking (?), all black and white, as Hakan said, very common in the US today. It's simplistic and destructive, and shows no understanding of how life works. >I have stayed on the topic of the group. Thank God >for Tony Blair, and the other seven European heads of state who had the >courage to stand side by side with George Bush today and say what must >be said in his support and of the need to oppose Saddam Hussein before >he hands his chemical or biological weapons to Al Qaida. Go and do yourself a favour, find the slightest vanishing shred of any indication at all that Saddam Hussein and Al Qaida have ever handed each other anything, or would, other than a knife in the back. But don't try to argue about it here, we've had more than enough of this stuff from you. > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-559907,00.html > Europe and America must stand united > The Times, London > January 30, 2003 Yes, Mr Anderson, you are a troll, that was obvious from the start. You did not come here through any sincere interest in biofuels, you came to sneer and belittle, expecting to find a bunch of flakey idealists, and you still think we're that, which is pretty stupid considering what the people here are actually doing - of which you remain blithely unaware. You've shown no real interest, no willingness to learn anything, you haven't even attempted to contribute anything, you've baited people and used any excuse to push your elitist, destructive and blind agenda. You're wasting people's time, distracting the list from its business, and abusing your membership privileges. That makes you a troll. You're not quite in John Grant's class of trollishness, but you're a troll anyway. We don't like trolls here, we get a few and we deal with them. Usually they go off whining that we kicked them out because we don't like their opinions, or that we pretend to be democratic but we denied them their right to free speech, or some such crap. In fact all opinions are more than welcome, whether "we" like them or not - it's a matter of behaviour, not of opinions. As for free speech, take note that this is not a public place where you have rights, it's more like a private club, where members (not citizens) have privileges, and with the privileges come obligations, and if you ignore the obligations, you lose the privileges. These are your options: you can lurk and keep quiet, or you can ask questions and learn, or you can contribute. Or you can go away. Or you can continue to be a smart-ass, in which case you'll get kicked out and banned. Your move. Keith Addison List owner >Damian Anderson Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
