>>There will not be any hydrogen vehicles or other hydrogen uses like >>heating out there for a while that will be anything the average >>person can use. It is simply too new. > >Too new for what? To be of any use in solving the immediate problem >within your deadline of 3 or 4 years? Lovins says "as soon as 2007", >will that do? > >Actually you're coming very close to the dismissive technique that's >used a lot against biofuels - it can't solve the whole problem, or it >can't solve enough of the problem soon enough, and therefore abandon >the whole idea.[...]
I agree with Keith's pointing-out of the dangerousness of this sort of dismissiveness, and although I've seen much worse dismissiveness of Hydrogen from others, it's always a point I like to read and go over. That said, my take on Bob's point here is somewhat different. I think he's trying to focus (for a moment) on the short-term issue: "What's going to happen in six months?" I think this is a question worth asking. Yes, there's a tone of a sort of unproductive dismissive panic in some of our writings, when we get so short-term, so let's be careful. But we can look at this topic without dismissing good ideas. The caveat I think is that when one examines, (for a moment, just for this context) the individual homeowner's point of view in the short-term, the challenges seem to become different. He doesn't really have any production EVs he can buy, his selection of used diesel vehicles is limited, solar panels while coming down in price are still a stiff price, etc. All this seems sort of anal, but if a financial energy "crunch" hits this winter, it's going to be the topic whether we like it or not. >> >... we have new better ways; solar, biofuels, wind, >> >water, tides, you name it and that's the goal we need to acheive. > >Those aren't going to solve the whole problem or solve enough of the >problem soon enough either, so if you're going to dismiss what Lovins >says as irrelevant you should dismiss these too. I saw some ads on TV yesterday as to Coal-generated electricity. I may not *like* it but the reality at present is that Coal is plentiful (albeit it does cost lives and ruin scenery to dig it up, but it is plentiful). The environmental costs of burning it are claimed to be somewhat mitigated from the past, but still high. So, all I"m saying is I'm not a "fan" precisely, and I really don't like how the many many alternatives have been under-done (to a point that I think is just gross), but to be fair, I do include these old dirty technologies in my own short and mid-term calculations. Maybe even the long-term ones, depending on the hard-to-predict level of success of some of the alternatives that we all engage in proposing. So, I"m agreeing with the tone of diversity in our thinking. It keeps coming into my head, and I don't know where else to say it, or when to wait for someone else to repeat it. During the last election, Nader said something like "Everyone knows Solar is the answer." Here we had an example of over-simplified one-technology-focus that, although I never agree with this all-the-eggs-in-one-basket approach, I knew what he meant. At the least, everyone knows Solar is grossly under-utilized and conspicuously ignored by the Oil-trained folks pretending sickeningly to want better national energy policy, in the face of major violent world calamities partly caused and partly influenced by terrible US Energy policy. MM >> >Those who are wise enough to see through this will be able to supply >> >themselves with alternate energy systems, reguardless of the type, >> >to coast through this next 3 or 4 years. Those who don't will pay a >> >hefty price for any energy they want or need for themselves. > >Each man for himself is not a very worthy sentiment. It's the poor >who'll suffer, whether they're "wise" or not - they're suffering >already. See: > >Fwd: Rising Transportation Costs Hurt Working Families / Hydrogen >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=26602&list=BIOFUEL > >Anyway, if you're discounting hydrogen and Lovins's arguments because >it's not doable on a backyard scale then why did you include tides? > >I don't necessarily agree with Lovins, but he has some serious >arguments that deserve consideration. To dismiss them out of hand >because you see them as not relevant to a forthcoming energy crunch >in the US won't do, it's a much bigger issue than that. > >The other reason I said "So what?" is that your point only applies to >Americans, perhaps, and most of the people here aren't Americans. Do >you think it applies to Japan, for instance? Quite a lot of us in >Japan on the list. > >Prospect of summer blackouts in Tokyo stoke unease about nuclear power >06 May 2003 >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24715&list=BIOFUEL > >You think that's less important than your forthcoming natural gas >crisis in the US? Too soon to tell. > >How about this? > >The Japan Times Online >Biomass recycling program planned for launch in 2010 > >Japan is targeting 2010 for the introduction of an ambitious program >to recycle leftover food, livestock manure and scrap wood as biomass >energy to fuel cars, ships and power plants, according to a report >obtained Thursday. > >A final government draft of the Biomass Nippon strategy, obtained by >Kyodo News, says the government will designate some 500 communities >as model areas for intensively implementing projects to utilize >biomass energy. > >Biomass fuel, made from animal, plant and other organic wastes, is >expected to contribute to fighting global warming through cutting the >use of fossil fuels and thereby reducing the amount of carbon dioxide >in the atmosphere, according to the document. > >The United States and the European Union have both set targets of >tripling the use of biomass energy by 2010. > >According to the final Biomass Nippon draft, the government will >launch by March 31 a study to assess the quality of diesel fuel made >from used rapeseed oil and other food waste, and test the fuel in >cars and ships. > >The strategy also includes building biomass power plants to be fueled >by scrap wood and methane gas originating from animal droppings, >promoting usage of biomass products made from manure, and using >ethanol abstracted from plants as automobile fuel. > >The projects are expected to generate 260 billion yen in the economy >in 2010 if they are carried out as stipulated, officials said. The >government hopes the biomass-related technology and products will >develop into a new strategic industry, they said. > >The government is expected to unveil the Biomass Nippon strategy by >the end of the year and start work on related legislation early next >year, according to the officials. > >The Japan Times: Dec. 20, 2002 >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19390&list=BIOFUEL > >They'll do it too, not just lip-service like your guys - in fact >we're doing it right now: >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19391&list=BIOFUEL >Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles > >Japan already has hydrogen-fuelled cars, and something of an >infrastructure. They'll beat you to it, as usual - like the hybrids. >What happened to the excellent hybrid technology developed in the >PNGV program with billions of US taxpayers' dollars, and then >shelved? Those are Lovins's "quintupled-efficiency vehicles", after >all. Just left to rot now that they've found a new milch cow? > >If you accept that, and if you're going to rely on your Big Three and >a White House awash with Big Oil, then you're probably right to say >there won't be any hydrogen vehicles for a while that the average >person can use and so on. Too new? Twelve years' work on those >hypercars. > >Re this: > >> >Remember years back for most of us when we went out and gathered our >> >winter's supply of wood for heat? > >Not years back - three billion people rely on woodfires right now. >http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html >Wood fires that fit - Appropriate technology: Journey to Forever > >Best > >Keith > > >>Bob >> >>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>Hello Bob, MM >> >> >Real one; spoof version; it makes little difference at this point in time. >> >>It was posted as one of three linked messages - did you read the other two? >> >>Experts Disagree on Promise of Hydrogen Fuel Cells >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/26546 >> >>and >> >>Amory B. Lovins's Hydrogen Primer >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/26548 >> >>Best >> >>Keith >> >> >> >> >There is only one goal presently in mind by those who hold the >> >product. Adjust the price to a proper place to adequately supply me >> >with the profit I want!! >> > >> >Those who are wise enough to see through this will be able to supply >> >themselves with alternate energy systems, reguardless of the type, >> >to coast through this next 3 or 4 years. Those who don't will pay a >> >hefty price for any energy they want or need for themselves. >> > >> >Every individual will have varying and different needs when it comes >> >to energy. Preparing one's self to cover the biggest majority and >> >purchase the smaller needs will win. >> > >> >Remember years back for most of us when we went out and gathered our >> >winter's supply of wood for heat? OK, that's not a good thing for >> >the air today but we have new better ways; solar, biofuels, wind, >> >water, tides, you name it and that's the goal we need to acheive. >> > >> >Bob >> > >> > >> >murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 >> >00:13:44 +0900, you wrote: >> > >> > >The real one, not the spoof version - the Science Magazine link is here: >> > >http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/301/5631/315 >> > >> >Since Hydrogen is presently made from Natural Gas, although >> >theoretically in the future we will have a better diversity of >> >sources, I wonder how the short-term looks for it, since we are lining >> >up to have a crisis in Natural Gas supply. > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge & refill kit orders to US & Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark & more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
