Hi Hakan
>Keith,
>
>I hope that you did not misunderstood what I said about
>the need of energy planning. In my mind it is nothing more
>effective than a wide spread movement on implementation
>of small scale production units. Decentralized decision
>making, implementation and production is the fastest way
>to do what is needed.
No, I didn't misunderstand, Hakan, it's implied in your first post
and I know you think that way. But many others don't, yet, and I
reckon it can't be said too often. And I just got you to say it
again! :-) Very nicely put too.
>What I am saying is that it must be a part of a plan,
>otherwise it will become vulnerable to the resistance that we
>experience today. It must have a high priority for the society,
>otherwise the financial and logistical support will be lacking.
>It must also be clear for everybody that it is socially and
>economically rewarding. In short, it is the politicians clear
>responsibility to create an environment for the decentralized
>efforts to be able to grow and nourish. The politicians should
>be the gardeners that remove the weeds and give the movement
>space to grow. Today they are growing weed and corrupting
>the soil with stones to block any effective preparation.
Well, let's not misunderstand each other again! - I also know that
you and me both have MUCH more faith (?) that the second type of
gardener is more in their line than the first, if they're even
capable of the first, or even capable of being gardeners (husbandry)
at all. Which I doubt, though there are always exceptions (I hope).
That's why I said this in the earlier post:
>I guess that's why a lot of biofuellers, especially homebrewers,
>regard it almost as a mission, guerrilla biofuelling - let's face it,
>if we wait around for the powers-that-be to take the lead the sky
>will fall on our heads first. Literally.
So yes, part of a plan, but if it's not to be coopted/hijacked by the
usual suspects it has to be rooted in local initiatives at the
grass-roots level, based on a strong foundation at the bottom. Huh -
one has to be that tautologous in this day and age when it's deemed
only natural to "base" everything at the top, hoist it all up on high
to a centrally commanding position, thus most precariously producing
an upside-down pyramid, and proclaim: "What a superbly balanced piece
of architecture!"
It should be people-oriented ("as if people mattered"), local
community-centred, in such a way that the politicians get told "Do it
or else." Or else no votes. A high priority for society indeed, but
how is that to be achieved? There's multi-billion dollars worth of
spin shoving them in just the opposite direction, plus virtually the
entire weight of the political machinery and all who sail in it,
along with the whole corporate world.
On the other hand, the big biofuels companies with their fancy PR
agencies admit that the grass-roots biodiesellers are more effective
than they are in getting the message across, and I think that's quite
obvious.
I liked what Gustl said about the Internet the other day:
>We have, with the advent of the internet, the chance to do things
>right. What is necessary is a change of heart. When the heart
>changes the mind will follow. The internet can be the great
>equalizer. It gives people of diverse and divergent backgrounds a
>chance to get to know each other without the extra baggage of all the
>artificial differentiators we impose on one another. We can see that
>most people want exactly what we want. A good, peaceful life with the
>assurance that our children will have a good, peaceful life. We have
>the chance to reach across any artificial border and give each other a
>hand rather than a fist. We have the ability and opportunity to
>communicate with people rather than governments or the media.
>Politics and politicians with their running mates, the monied class,
>don't give us that opportunity. They exploit people and they exploit
>resources with the goal of maintaining the status quo which is the
>Haves controlling and using the Have Not's for their own interests.
>The internet gives us an opportunity to stand back and see things from
>different perspectives. One of distance when looking at our "own" and
>one of proximity when looking at "others" without the blinders of
>politics, race, age, national origin, sex, religion, etc.
>
>Back in the sixties they used to say, "If you're not part of the
>solution you are part of the problem." I think that is apropos. And
>politics is not part of the solution. It gives the appearance of
>meaningful effort with little lasting results or change and that is
>dangerous. Bandages rather than cures. The cure is effected by
>personal example action...one on one. Evolution. Slow, to be sure, but
>certain. Individuals, small groups. It will grow. Politics lulls
>one into believing something really has been accomplished by covering
>up problems, diverting attention.
As we also both know, since it's the US we're talking about,
Washington might be Washington, but Americans are Americans no matter
what, and they'll solve this problem. I have half an idea they
already have - the DIY biofuels movement has grown tremendously in
the US in the last three or four years. It wasn't even a movement
then,but it sure is one now. I think it's probably unstoppable
already.
Regards
Keith
>Hakan
>
>
>At 03:28 AM 8/22/2003 +0900, Keith Addison wrote:
> >Hi Hakan and all
> >
> >I think I have to stress the essential emphasis on scale and level -
> >**small** scale, **local** level - both of which are emphasized in
> >the three messages I linked earlier in this thread, and in my
> >response to Brent:
> >
> >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=18699&list=BIOFUEL
> >
> >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1395&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
> >
> >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1801&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
> >
> >Todd says much the same in this message posted a few days ago, mainly
> >but not only about WVO, but he makes the same point. None of this
> >will make any sense nor do much good if the same big, centralized,
> >top-down players remain in (sole) control of it.
> >
> > >From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:04:42 -0500
> > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Rendering.
> > >
> > >In the US, WVO collected by the larger renderers is generally already
> > >contracted out to animal feed, cosmetic and other oleo chemical markets.
> > >
> > >It's the small collector of restaurant grease that can't
>leverage their way
> > >into these markets, primarily due to their small volume (small by industry
> > >standards, not biodieseler's) that ends up disposing of this
>feedstock in a
> > >less than utilitarian manner.
> > >
> > >Also, be aware that the major petrochemical/liquid fuels interests (to be
> > >read BP, Sunocco, etc.) are plying the larger companies that
>collect WVO for
> > >every spare drop that they have beyond their existing contracts. Such
> > >requisitions are destined for biodiesel, as these fossil
>interests know very
> > >well the lucrative nature of this market if exploited
>thoroughly, as well as
> > >the fact that they have a need for a sulfur replacement as they
>move towards
> > >desulfured distillate fuel oils.
> > >
> > >The real trick from the utilitarian/grass roots side is getting
>enough small
> > >biodiesel plants (300-1,000 gpd) operational throughout the country (every
> > >small burg and blip on the map). This would give outlet to all WVO that
> > >isn't already picked up by the larger vendors as well as give an
>outlet for
> > >that which might be more prone to being landfilled.
> > >
> > >Throw in the fact that the biofuels at this scale can be
>produced, sold and
> > >used within each community, all-the-while saving community
>businesses money
> > >(all of this to be read "keeping revenues circulating within a community")
> > >and in time even the larger collectors/renderers are going to be
>faced with
> > >diminishing supply.
> > >
> > >This is, of course, their largest contemporary worry (aside from
>the EPA and
> > >local health departments) and it can be expected that some
>lobbying is going
> > >on daily within the local, state and federal levels.
> > >
> > >My personal suggestion is that any and everyone who has had the vision and
> > >put forward the effort to make biodiesel at the scale of a 30-55
>gallon drum
> > >(that's about the scale where "reality" starts to sink in and take firm
> > >root) get off their duff and start moving towards something
>community sized.
> > >
> > >Todd Swearingen
> >
> >regards
> >
> >Keith
> >
> >
> >
> > >Hi,
> > >
> > >I think that what you are describing is the lack of energy planning
> > >and viable energy policies. It is also a description of casualties
> > >caused by the "hydrogen hype". Although the very positive work
> > >that you are doing, the following will be needed,
> > >
> > >1. A massive escalation of biofuel production facilities, with combined
> > > ethanol and biodiesel production from corn. Even if corn might
> > > not be the most effective feed stock, it is an overproduction of
> > > it and to start there would be the most efficient way. Movement
> > > to other feed stocks should be thought of, when creating the
> > > facilities.
> > >
> > >2. An escalation massive escalation of biomass plants, with the same
> > > principles as previous point.
> > >
> > >3. An energy plan and policies that forces the power companies
> > > to invest in storage solutions. This is their responsibilities and
> > > they must cater for this. It must happen anyway and when it does,
> > > it will allow effective Solar, Wind and Conservation. A quick start
> > > would be to utilize the storage capacity in the buildings, instead
> > > of wasting a lot of energy on trying to neglect this
>storage capacity.
> > >
> > >4. Energy saving measures that cover vehicles, buildings and industry
> > > processes. With this, it is not only possible to halt the growth in
> > > energy use, but also achieve net savings from the situation of today.
> > >
> > >The only things that stop real and spectacular improvements in US, are
> > >ignorance, corruption and protection of special corporate interests. It
> > >is not a question of technical development, it is question of political
> > >developments and reforms. If US get their act together, it is also the
> > >fastest way to get results in the rest of the world.
> > >
> > >I can think of many more detailed actions, but the above will cover
> > >most of them.
> > >
> > >Hakan
> > >
> > >
> > >At 07:49 AM 8/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Mike, all of your thoughts are right on the target.
> > > > I work with groups of farmers all over the USA.
> > > > We have built the 30 million dollar bio diesel plants ( 4 now
> > > > operating and providing diesel to farmers and truckers all over the
> > > > Northern states)
> > > > We are building the biomass plants, these save at last count,
> > > > $18,000,000 dollars worth of diesel and natural gas per year!
> > > > We are trying to use solar, but the grid work is not in
>place and the
> > > > storage capacity is too costly for their internal use.
> > > > We have installed wind farms and are continuing to do
>so... however,
> > > > wind farms are not the most practical because they do not
>offer continous
> > > > power... and the power companies want solid, continous power...
> > > > We are building methane plants... right now, that technology is
> > > > probably 5 years down the road for efficient production....
>the bacteria
> > > > makes methane, but the antibodies that are given to the cows (pigs and
> > > > chickens) to keep them healthy,, kill the bacteria...
> > > >
> > > >thanks for your thoughts.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Mike Johnston
> > > > To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 12:12 AM
> > > > Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re:Re: Question
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I have been thinking about something energy related and I thought
> > > > I'd send an outline of the idea here. It is far from finished but with
> > > > the recent blackout and subsequent talk of utility customers having to
> > > > bear costs to upgrade the grid to the tune of 50 billion dollars or
> > > > more it seems even more relevant. I would appreciate opinions on the
> > > > basic concept.
> > > > Farmers as energy producers... farms can produce quite a bit of
> > > > alternative, environmentally friendly energy but no one is
>really pushing
> > > > the concept at this time.
> > > > Sources:
> > > > Solar:
> > > > Farms usually have a LOT of roof area for solar so they could have a
> > > > nice output without affecting the land for their agricultural
>activities.
> > > > I saw a thing saying that if, like a chunk of Nevada was
>covered by solar
> > > > panels that it could supply all the energy need of the US. If
>the average
> > > > Barn has a roof area of 100' by 50' that's 50,000 sq/ft per barn times
> > > > maybe 500,000 to a million barns in the US and it gets interesting only
> > > > using solar.
> > > > Wind:
> > > > Again, farms have open land and windmill towers won't impact ag
> > > > activities too much. More site sensitive though.
> > > > Methane:
> > > > Heavy livestock operations like dairies and swine and chicken farms
> > > > produce a LOT of manure which can be placed in an anaerobic digester
> > > > where it releases methane which drives a generator. one dairy farmer in
> > > > NY is saving 70,000 a year with his digester.
> > > > Biodiesel:
> > > > Crop farms can produce and refine all the ingredients for Biodiesel
> > > > (veg. oil and ethanol) except for the caustic soda. Then blend it into
> > > > Biodiesel for their own use and to sell locally as auto fuel or home
> > > > heating oil or kerosene. Ethanol can of course be sold separately
> > >as a fuel.
> > > > Other: Depending on the location and or operation of the
>farm there are
> > > > several other main competitors:
> > > > Wood/sawdust/wood chip fired boilers.
> > > > Straw fired boilers (seem popular in the UK right now).
> > > > And of course flowing water.
> > > > farms are fairly bursting with potential energy profits! All of
> > > > these sources are stand-alone or mix and match depending on the
> > > > individual site. I am going to do a website section on this
>concept with
> > > > sources of equipment, installers, consultants and green energy funding
> > > > sources on a website called practicalenviornmentalism.org It
>is a pretty
> > > > new site but the guy who owns it wanted content so I came up with
> > >this idea.
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > > MJ
> > > >
> > > > Message: 3
> > > > Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 04:21:32 +0900
> > > > From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Question
> > > >
> > > > I think, Brent, that that is only true for the same reason that
> > > > people look at you funny. The oil's there, for sure, put it just
> > > > isn't pointed in the right direction (at the fuel tank!) because
> > > > people aren't thinking straight. Yet. They're not "hungry" enough
> > > > (yet), they can still afford to be sloppy and wasteful about it - or
> > > > at least they think they can. A *very* conservative estimate is 1kg
> > > > of WVO per capita per year. How many folks in that city? Can even
> > > > that much be accounted for? I bet not.
> > > >
> > > > Also, WVO isn't the only resource available. Please see these
> > > > previous messages:
> > > >
> > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=18699&list=BIOFUEL
> > > >
> > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1395&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
> > > >
> > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1801&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
> > > >
> > > > I've just posted a response to a Biofuel list message saying this:
> > > >
> > > > >What is stopping these resources from being fully exploited?
> > > > >
> > > > >- BILLIONS of gallons of waste vegetable oil produced in the US a
> > > > >year, very little of which is accounted for, most of which gets
> > > > >added to the waste stream - the fact that nobody even knows how much
> > > > >of it there is would be a good indication of how seriously it's
> > > > >regarded;
> > > > >
> > > > >- BILLIONS of gallons - more than 4 billion - of **surplus** soy
> > > > >oil, which is the by-product, the feed-cake is the "product";
> > > > >
> > > > >- BILLIONS of bushels of surplus corn - the cheapest thing for
> > > > >Americans to burn in their woodstoves, while the ADMs and Cargills
> > > > >of this world that turn some of it into ethanol apparently haven't
> > > > >even yet realized that there's OIL in it too, which shows just how
> > > > >much attention they've been paying.
> > > > >
> > > > >It seems the rapeseed (canola) *plant* - not the seeds, the plant
> > > > >residue - contains 13% oil, where have you ever heard of that being
> > > > >exploited?
> > > >
> > > > I guess that's why a lot of biofuellers, especially homebrewers,
> > > > regard it almost as a mission, guerrilla biofuelling - let's face it,
> > > > if we wait around for the powers-that-be to take the lead the sky
> > > > will fall on our heads first. Literally.
> >
>**********************************************
>If you want to take a look on a project
>that is very close to my heart, go to:
>http://energysavingnow.com/
>http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card
>http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me
>http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site
>http://playa.nu/ Our small rental activities
>**********************************************
>
>"No flag is large enough to cover the shame of
>killing innocent people" -- Howard Zinn
>
>"Nobody grows old merely by living a number of years.
>We grow old by deserting our ideals. Years may
>wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm
>wrinkles the soul." - Unknown
>
>"Democracy is the worst possible system, except for
>all the others." - Churchill
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