Alex, Although, in general, I prefer Diesel engines and either biodiesel or SVO/WVO over ethanol and spark ignition engines, one must admit that in the case of Brazil the best solution over all has probably been ethanol given the huge amounts of sugarcane they had available to them. In your case, Canada, you have lots and lots of Canola, and would prefer that. It all has to be looked at relative to the local environment.
Cheers, Derek > To me the question is - was ethanol the best way for Brazil to solve > the fuel problem? > The same question can be applied to many discussions on this list. > Yes, there are many ways of making the fuel - but why to choose curved > line over the straight line? > I think we always have to try to approach straight line as much as > possible in our decision making. > Right now I'm convinced that straight line is a diesel on SWO approach. > It took me some time to figure it out - at first I was a proponent of > ethanol, then steam, then Bio-diesel, and only now I realized > that SWO + diesel is an ideal combination. What is most appealing to me > is the fact that SWO can be bought anywhere, > from a local farmer shed to a corner variety store. Also it can be grown > locally and easy to process - basically Canola > just needs to be crashed and filtered. Efficiency in a diesel is quite > high ~ 40 %, plus it can be used in a burner for heat! > Getting back to Brazil - just want to make the record straight. For some > reason in these discussions it is perceived that Brazil > is next thing to the Garden of Eden because it is making lots of > Ethanol. Yet it could be doing 10 times better if it produced > SWO instead for driving and used diesel as a main engine. In general > Brazil has a tremendous level of poverty among its > population. It also systematically destroys Amazon forest. > Sorry - Brazil is not ny model of paradise. > Alex > > > > > Keith Addison wrote: > > >>Some comments: > >> > >>Keith Addison wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>>It seems to me that SVO is a better solution then ethanol. > >>>>Why?- Because it is easy to make and easy to get, license free. > >>>>One really doesn't have to make a"plant" for it - it is very safe too! > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Alex, we need MORE biofuels options, not less. Anyway in practise it > >>>doesn't make good sense to say one proven technology is necessarily > >>>better than another, it depends on the particular circumstances. The > >>>"best technology" approach usually ends up with the problem being > >>>fitted to the solution, whether it fits well or not, instead of the > >>>other way round. Then come all the so-called "unexpected > >>>side-effects", and the net result is too often just the opposite of > >>>what was intended. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>I agree - I'm just talking as an Ontario resident, here we really > >>> > >>> > >>can use more sun, but we got > >> > >> > >> lots of productive land and decent hard - working people. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Lets suppose for a minute that diesel engine could run on SVO without > >>>>any mods. > >>>>Will we need diesel fuel or biodiesel ? - No. > >>>>Why not to put pressure on manufacturers in this case to make diesel > >>>>engines which can run on SVO without any mods? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>This is what it says at the "TDI-SVO controversy" page at Journey to > >>>Forever, and I've often said so here, and so have others: > >>> > >>>"... But in establishing what works and what doesn't work, some are > >>>likely to be left with the remains of what didn't work. They'll be > >>>heroes in the cause of real straight vegetable oil diesel motors, > >>>that anyone can use, not just enthusiasts -- manufacturer-made, > >>>supplied and warranted diesels that can run on petro-diesel, > >>>biodiesel or straight vegetable oil, in any blend, without any > >>>fuel-switching or fuss: fill 'er up, switch on and go, stop and > >>>switch off, like any other car. Currently only the Elsbett system > >>>does that." > >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html > >>> > >>>It's one reason we promote SVO use. The more people use SVO, no > >>>matter what system or method they use, the more it's likely to dawn > >>>on the manufacturers that there's a demand for SVO diesels. Biodiesel > >>>would then have been a transitional fuel, though it will continue to > >>>be used for decades in the very many long-lasting diesels around the > >>>world made before any shift by manufacturers to full SVO capability. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>This is a very reasonable approach. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Brazil, with its warm climate , should switch to SVO or Turpentine! > >>>>instead. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Not so, they've established a sound, effective and sustainable system > >>>of producing large amounts of fuel ethanol, you'd want them to > >>>abandon it for no very clear reason and start all over again with > >>>something that might not fit nearly so well? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>I really don't buy it . It looks like some interest groups greatly > >>benefited from ethanol production. The same old story... > >> > >> > > > >No. Some interest groups did benefit, but, unlike, say, Halliburton's > >corrupt arrangements in Iraq with the Bush Gang, they weren't at all > >the only ones to benefit. Arguments that the whole society didn't > >benefit, including at local levels (all-important), fall part on > >closer examination. For instance: > > > > > > > >>Fuel alcohol in Brazil > >> > >>The food shortages and price increases that Brazil suffered a few > >>years ago, were blamed on the ProAlcool programme (fuel ethanol). > >>However, a closer examination does not support the view that > >>bioethanol production has adversely affected food production since > >>Brazil is one of the world's largest exporters of agricultural > >>commodities and agricultural production has kept ahead of population > >>growth: in 1976 the production of cereals was 416 kg per capita, and > >>in 1987 -- 418 kg per capita. Of the 55 million ha of land area > >>devoted to primary food crops, only 4.1 million ha (7.5 per cent) > >>was used for sugarcane, which represents only 0.6 per cent of the > >>total area registered for economic use (or 0.3 per cent of Brazil's > >>total area). Of this, only 1.7 million ha was used for ethanol > >>production, so competition between food and crops is not significant. > >> > >>Furthermore, crop rotation in sugarcane areas has led to an increase > >>in certain food crops, while some byproducts such as hydrolyzed > >>bagasse and dry yeast are used as animal feed. Some experts > >>(Goldemberg,1992) believe that 'In fact, the potential for producing > >>food in conjunction with sugarcane appears to be larger than > >>expected and should be explored further'. > >> > >>Food shortages and price increases in Brazil have resulted from a > >>combination of policies which were biased towards commodity export > >>crops and large acreage increases of such crops, hyper-inflation, > >>currency devaluation, price control of domestic foodstuffs etc. > >>Within this reality, any negative effects that bioethanol production > >>might have had should be considered as part of the overall problem, > >>not the problem. > >> > >>It is important to mention that developing countries are facing both > >>food and fuel problems. Adoption of agricultural practices should, > >>therefore, take into account this reality and evolve efficient > >>methods of utilising available land and other resources to meet both > >>food and fuel needs (besides other products), e.g., from > >>agroforestry systems." > >> > >>-- From "Renewable Energy", FAE-SZOPK, Bratislava, Slovakia -- the > >>Foundation for Alternative Energy (FAE) is a Slovak non-governmental > >>organisation committed to environmental protection through the > >>promotion of sustainable energy development: Biomass -- See "FOOD OR > >>FUEL?" > >>http://www.seps.sk/zp/fond/dieret/biomass.html > >> > >>See also "Fuel Ethanol and Food Supply", Canadian Renewable Fuels > >>Association: > >>http://www.greenfuels.org/ethafood.html > >> > >> > > > >This is from "Biofuels - Food or Fuel?" at JtF. (You should check the > >Canadian link.) > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html > > > >There's a lot more of Emil Bedi's excellent work at Hakan's site: > >http://energy.saving.nu/energytoday/basics.shtml > > > >If you have a closer look at the ProAlcool links that Hoagy posted a > >couple of weeks ago you'll find more. > > > >Keith > > > > > > > > > >>>Why this either/or thinking? It needs both/and thinking. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Agreed. > >>Alex > >> > >> > >>>Best > >>> > >>>Keith > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Alex > >>>> > >>>> > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Biofuels list archives: > >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
