Keith, My data was the 1998 report by Prof. David Pimentel which has been lamblasted by the renewable energy folks. I think it is more of the correct story than saying that, using selected data, the ENERGY BALANCE tips in the favor of ethanol. If the tractor is used in the production of the raw materials, its' cost must be included in the equation. Life is not so simple as to say -"Here is corn, now make ethanol and only count the conversion energy". Life cycle cost analysis is being touted as a more correct view of cheap Chinese plastic parts inundating the American markets. Whatever became of the metal parts you could repair instead of the plastic ones that break easily and must be thrown away.
I have included a piece from your web page, JOURNEY TO FOREVER, on the Pimentel report which I do not agree with. "Corn-Based Ethanol Does Indeed Achieve Energy Benefits" -- "Prof. David Pimentel's 1998 assessment of corn ethanol concluded that corn ethanol achieved a negative energy balance (which is usually defined as the energy in a product minus energy used to produce the product). Unfortunately, his assessment lacked timeliness in that it relied on data appropriate to conditions of the 1970s and early 1980s, but clearly not the 1990s... With up-to-date information on corn farming and ethanol production and treating ethanol co-products fairly, we have concluded that corn-based ethanol now has a positive energy balance of about 20,000 Btu per gallon." Art ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story. Hi Art The list is set to reject attachments, as well as html or coded messages (ASCII - plain text only) as an essential anti-virus measure. If you send me the attachment direct I can put it where folk can see it, either at Journey to Forever or in the list Files area (which is not very useful since Yahoo "improved" it). Best Keith >Todd, > >Take a look at the attachment. > >Thanks for not raining on my parade! :-) > >Art > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Appal Energy > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 5:27 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. > > > Hellow Art, > > Rather than raining on anyone's parade, how about sharing the source of what > you read. > > Ethanol is one dickens of a burgeoning industry. Either it has some > economical and/or environmental merit or it's the biggest scam since > organized religion. > > Wouldn't hurt to let an audience decide for themselves. > > Todd Swearingen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Art Krenzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:02 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. > > > > RR, > > > > Sorry to rain on your parade but the recent numbers that I read from as > late as a year ago, when the costs of production include replacement cost of > farm machinery and consumables, the equation is a break even at best but > more likely still a loss. I am willing to listen but show me the data and > the source. > > > > Also, what is the concentration of the 70 gallons of ethanol produced from > the cellulose? That is, most likely, a theoretical number which is probably > based on dilute solutions. One of the constraints on ethanol production is > that as the concentration of alcohol increases the fermentation slows down. > Advertisers of technology tout yields of dilute concentrations of ethanol - > producers (who have to distill the dilute water solutions) push delivered > cents per gallon costs of ethanol. The difference is quite wide and affects > the bottom line harshly. > > > > What is the "methanol from the products of hydrolysis" statement? Are you > speaking of converting the hydrolyzed biomass to methane biogas and > catalytically converting that to methanol? > > > > I am looking forward to the education. > > > > Art > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:57 AM > > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. > > > > > > Art, > > > > You should consider not using old numbers on energy used in ethanol > > production. It has been discussed several times in this forum how > current, > > and more accurate, numbers show that producing ethanol, at least from > corn, > > is energy positive, not energy negative. Not to mention the newer > processes > > that include the corn stalk, which double the alcohol output. > > > > Not meant to start yet another dispute with regard to fuel from food, or > > sustainability needs of returning waste to the fields. > > > > From what I've read, one ton of waste paper (cellulose) can produce > > approximately 70 gallons of ethanol, compare this to the approximately > 92 > > gallons from one ton of corn, I'd say it's pretty reasonable output. > This > > doesn't include creating methanol from the "waste" product from the > > hydrolysis process, created earlier in the lignin/cellulose separation > > phase. Also, it seems that the problem is with producing workable > enzymes > > to extract the cellulose from the lignin. I've seen a reference to 15 > cents > > US, per gallon, for the enzyme costs (unsure of the date of that paper), > but > > it sounds pretty darn cheap to me to produce ethanol from waste > cellulose or > > wood products, for the enzymes that is. > > > > If the feedstock is free or nearly free...and I realize that's not the > only > > step in the process, but it is the significant one in my view. > > > > > > Message: 21 > > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:12:14 -0700 > > From: "Art Krenzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. > > > > RR, > > > > If you do not see any reason why only mineral residues should be > returned to > > soil, you do not understand how natural soil works. The carbon which is > > returned in the form of a soil amendment acts as food for the biology > which > > converts soil minerals into plant available materials for growth. > Otherwise > > all the material to be consumed by the plant would need to be already > > processed to plant available materials before the plant can use them. > > "Depleted soils" are those which have too little active biology present > > (organic matter) to do the processing and/or too little mineral matter > to > > convert to plant available foods. Returning organic matter is the key > to > > soil sustainability, not just minerals. > > > > One of the limiting factor in converting any organic material to alcohol > is > > the cost of distillation of the alcohol from the water. Typically, > alcohol > > made from cellulose is very low yielding and typically produces about a > 2% > > alcohol product. Alcohol fermentation from corn or grain feedstocks > > produces an alcohol concentration of up to 10% or greater. Since the > fossil > > fuels required to produce and distill a 10% alcohol solution is already > > greater than the energy it produces as alcohol, evaporating five times > more > > water due to the low feedstock concentration would make the energy > equation > > even more negative. > > > > The breakthrough would be if cellulose could produce higher > concentrations > > of alcohol or a new low cost method of separating the alcohol from the > water > > solution is developed or such. > > > > Plain poor economics is the reason you do not see more cellulose to > ethanol > > systems around the world today. > > > > Art Krenzel, P.E. > > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > > 10505 NE 285TH Street > > Battle Ground, WA 98604 > > 360-666-1883 voice Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! 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