hi ,
Just to clarify.
I mentioned glycerine and "the resulting soap"s as two seperatable
components of biodiesel waste streams both requiring further
processing. processed glycerine IS added into some soaps resulting
in "glycerine soap "however but were talking food grade glycerines
which are highly refined.although finding an outlet for these by
products is not easy ,it is worth while if you can produce large
quantities of biodiesel. in our case ,it is entirely feasable for us
to produce up to 7000 gallons per week with our facility although at
this time we only produce two hundred gallons at a time..as we have
just gotten into production this month and the market in our area is
not yet established enough to support full production capacity
although it may take a quantum leap when school is back in session in
august and all the Sevier county school busses go to biodiesel as
planned. then the demand could reach 20 thousand gallons per month
just from this county.
Marc
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hallo All,
>
> I thought this may be of some interest to some on the list. I know
it
> is something I have wondered about for a good while now.
>
> Happy Happy,
>
> Gustl
>
> This is a forwarded message
> From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2004, 23:57:57
> Subject: : Re: [WoodGas] Re: -----hydrocarbon cracking
>
> ==============Original message text===============
> [Gustl, if you'd like to forward this to the Biofuel list you'd be
> more than welcome. - K]
>
>
> Hello Gustl
>
> >Keith,
> >
> >When I first joined the biodiesel lists I asked about deodorizing
the
> >glycerine but was told it couldn't be done. Now this fellow,
Marc, is
> >talking about the glycerine being used for all sorts of
things
> >including soaps which, in my view, wouldn't fly with the odor it
has.
> >Has anyone come up with something I have missed and has a
method of
> >deodorizing the glycerine?
>
> Marc's right, glycerine is a valuable product with many uses. To
the
> extent that the commercial soapmakers remove it from the soap
because
> they can get better prices for it elsewhere - for instance in the
> form of skin softeners and so on to counter the effects of all that
> harsh glycerine-free soap! Ain't capitalism wonderful!
>
> But how valuable and useful it might be to us is another matter.
>
> I've thought of deodorising the by-product by filtering it through
> charcoal, but I never tried it because I think it's the wrong
problem.
>
> Note I said "by-product", not glycerine: generally we talk of the
> by-product or the "glycerine cocktail". What drops out of a
biodiesel
> reaction is not only glycerine, or often not even mainly glycerine.
> This is from our website:
>
> "What sinks to the bottom of the biodiesel processor during the
> settling stage is a mixture of glycerine, methanol, soaps and the
lye
> catalyst. Most of the excess methanol and most of the catalyst
> remains in this layer."
>
> And:
>
> "A commonly asked question: How much glycerine do you get? A better
> question would be: How much of the "glycerine layer" is actually
> glycerine? The rule of thumb is 79 milliliters of glycerine per
liter
> of oil used -- 7.9%. In fact there's usually more soap -- the
> "glycerine" layer is more of a "soap" layer than anything else.
> Unless you use Aleks Kac's "Foolproof" acid-base two-stage process,
> that is..."
>
> -- From: Separating glycerine
> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#separate
>
> If you do just that, separate the by-product into it's different
> components as described there, you get three layers: on top, the
> soaps, converted back into Free Fatty Acids (in making biodiesel
you
> remove the FFAs from the reaction by converting them to soaps, this
> converts them back again); below that, a layer of glycerine, maybe
> 85-95% pure (this layer contains the excess methanol, which can now
> be reclaimed for re-use); and on the bottom the catalyst, in the
form
> of a layer of sodium or potassium phosphate salts.
>
> The important bit - once the methanol is removed, this separated
> glycerine doesn't smell much. The smell goes with the FFAs. It's
the
> soaps in the by-product that smell, more than the glycerine.
>
> Problem solved.
>
> Or is it? Not really... You can't make soap out of glycerine. You
can
> add it to soap, but if the soap already contains the glycerine
> content of the oil/fat it was produced from, it probably won't need
> any more. There's an upper limit to the glycerine content of soap
and
> it's not very high - it's an alcohol after all.
>
> Can you sell it? Yes, in theory - but in the US anyway, only by the
> container-load, unless you find a special outlet.
>
> If it were really pure, 99%+, you might have more luck, but that
> means distilling it, and the boiling point is 290 deg C, 554 deg F,
> needs lots of energy. Purpose-built solvent purification distillers
> are rather expensive. It might though be worth putting this
separated
> glycerine through a carbon filter.
>
> As for making soap with any of this stuff, not so easy. The
> by-product as-is, the whole cocktail, is a powerful degreaser
(remove
> the methanol first), but not exactly a soap. Too alkaline, for one
> thing, harsh, with all that lye still in there. There are people
who
> say they make soap out of it, and you can do that, but it's low-
grade
> soap, not something you'd want to sell.
>
> The commercial soapmakers make soap out of Free Fatty Acids, but I
> don't think you'd have much success on a kitchen or backyard scale -
> you might get soap, I suppose, but again, low-grade, and, your
> original problem, it'll smell of WVO. In the trade this stuff is
> produced by deacidifying virgin oil to meet food-grade standards
and
> so on, it's called soapstock or foots, and there isn't a very good
> market for it. It makes good heating fuel though (in a Turk burner
or
> something similar), and it can be used for pre-heating WVO for
making
> biodiesel.
>
> The third layer at the bottom when you separate the by-product
> cocktail, the catalyst, is probably the easiest bit to sell. It's
one
> of the reasons commercial biodiesel producers prefer using KOH to
> NaOH as the catalyst. When you use phosphoric acid to separate the
> by-product components, this leaves you with potassium phosphates,
> which can be reclaimed and sold as chemical fertiliser.
>
> The relative value of all of these options will vary according to
the
> individual operation, and they're worth exploring.
>
> We don't use any of them, preferring to use the by-product as-is
for
> heating, complete with the excess methanol. We don't have a
disposal
> or recycling or resale problem with it, we use it all up.
>
> >Hope you are well and happy friend.
>
> Yes thankyou Gustl, I hope you are too.
>
> >You never cease to amaze me.
> >Please keep doing so. :o)
>
> :-)
>
> I'll try.
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Happy Happy,
> >
> >Gustl
> >
> >This is a forwarded message
> >From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Marc Orion Cardoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2004, 19:54:13
> >Subject: [WoodGas] Re: -----hydrocarbon cracking
> >
> >==============Original message text===============
> >Hallo Marc,
> >
> >Thursday, 27 May, 2004, 14:09:42, you wrote:
> >
> >...snip...
> >MOC> glycerine is a very valuable by product used in
> >MOC> industry,cosmetics,sweeteners, and in the health food
business and
> >MOC> the soap that also results is also highly valuable especially
> >MOC> the "hand made" soaps that are found in high end stores.. ,
the
> >...snip...
> >
> >This is something I have been wondering about. How does one, or
is it
> >even possible to, neutralize the odor of french fries, fish,
donuts,
> >etc. in the end product? I am on some biodiesel lists and so
far no
> >one has been able to answer this question including Keith at
Journey
> >to Forever.
> >
> >If it is possible I would really like to know how to do it. I
have
> >thought of making soap with the glycerine but can think of only a
very
> >few people who would like fish or french fry scented soap.
> >
> >Any help would be greatly appreciated friend.
> >
> >Happy Happy,
> >
> >Gustl
>
> ===========End of original message text===========
> --
> Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
> Mitglied-Team AMIGA
> ICQ: 22211253-Gustli
> ********
> The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope,
> soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones,
> without signposts.
> C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"
> ********
> Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen,
> da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht
> gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.
> ********
> Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
> hear the music.
> George Carlin
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