Hi Gustl, There is a little known fact about the founding fathers that might shed some additional light as to whether or not they were religious.
Thirteen signers of the constitution were Freemasons. In order to be a member of the fraternity, you need to declare your faith in God. You do not have to subscribe to a particular religion. But, you must be monotheistic. http://www.freemasonry.org/psoc/masonicmyths.htm Mike P.S. Maybe we're related. My Grandmother's last name is Rombach-Steiner. She's an Emmentaler. ...any relatives in Switzerland? :-) Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hallo Todd, (Sorry this is so late. I have been out of town and unwell.) Tuesday, 15 February, 2005, 10:56:35, you wrote: If you will notice you will see that I took no exception with the essay aside from this: >>> The Founding Fathers were not religious men, >> This bit is absolutely false. The problem I have with your reply is not with you, but with letting others, whether those others be contemporary society or Webster's dictionary for that matter, control my world and conception of reality by controlling the language. We give up enough control of our own lives as it is without allowing the few to mainpulate the many through our respective languages whether the few happen to be political, economic, religious or any other kind of "authorities". What you are describing below is organized religion not religion itself. A deist is still a religious person whether they are part of an organized group or sit alone in a cave in a mountain. The concern of the founding fathers was with ones personal liberty and freedom and that folks not be required by the state to believe or disbelieve one way or the other by anyone particularly the state. They didn't want a state church established. Their intent was very clear and and obvious and was clearly stated. We have allowed partisan interests with what I would consider extreme and unreasonable views to manipulate us into this situation to further their own agendas and to assert their will in order to control the rest of us. If we are going to allow others who are unreasonable to define and control us then we are going to have to accept that a blowjob isn't sex, an outright lie is a failure of intel, that allowing private banks to collect interest called the nationl debt on money that neither exists nor has anything of worth to back it is in the best interests of people (fractional banking), and that there is such a thing as a "good" war. Religion comes from the inside out and although worship may be corporate and beliefs shared, religion is personal and subjective. Anything else may have name and form but it lacks substance. Creed and sectarianism not religion. They don't teach religion in the seminaries and theological schools they teach their own partisan apprehension of religion. That doesn't make it genuine or valid. But anyway, to say that the founding fathers were not religious men is just patently absurd. Some were some weren't. What they definitely were is not willing to have what the believed or didn't believe shoved down their throats and they weren't willing to shove it down others throats either. Seems to me they were relatively reasonable men unlike today. We don't seem to have evolved enough to be reasonable folks. I would imagine that suits Big Brother just fine because then he can step in and make the rules and define our words and lives for us because we are too stupid to learn to get along with one another and resolve our differences reasonably and peacefully. Leben und leben lassen. Jeder spinnt anders. Happy Happy, Gustl AE> Gustl, AE> I don't think you'd find it as false a claim as you might think if you apply AE> the generally accepted, contemporary, rough translation of "religion" and AE> "religious" to the matter. Even if you strictly applied the definitions AE> found in Websters, you would quickly see that they don't stick very well to AE> those who don't adhere to the extremes of "worship" and systemized ritual. AE> Their beliefs were by-and-large "all encompassing," incorporating AE> fundamental tenants found in almost all religions, not specifically the AE> tenants and doctrines of any one religion. AE> When you combine their almost unanimous acknowledgements of diety with their AE> discord for "organized religion," its constructs and decripitudes, you would AE> probably come up with a more precise akin to 'The founding fathers were AE> deists, not men of religion,' which the author does go to great lengths to AE> verify. AE> All in all his statement is to a very large degree correct. And, as you may AE> have noticed, it certainly gets the dander up for some, eh? AE> :-) AE> Quite the nicely written and well thought out piece of work - far more AE> accurate than the habitual abuse of historic fact for the purpose of AE> idealogical gain being rendered by the self-appointed "elitists" of the day. AE> Todd Swearingen AE> ----- Original Message ----- AE> From: AE> To: AE> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:17 AM AE> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution >> On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:38:52 -0800 >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (knoton) wrote: >>> Our Godless Constitution >>> by BROOKE ALLEN >>> [from the February 21, 2005 issue] >>> >>> The Founding Fathers were not religious men, >> >> This bit is absolutely false. What our founding fathers >> were were religious men who knew the importance of not >> letting sectarian predilicition intefere with the rights >> they were espousing and the government they were >> establishing. They were giving the people the right to >> choose their religion or to choose to not have any >> religion, a purely private decision. Unfortunately the >> modern state has instituted radical and mindless >> "patriotism" as the state religion. A sad situation. >> >> Happy Happy, >> >> Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli ******** The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" ******** Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. ******** Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin ******** The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
