Hi, Relax...nothing was personal...you brought up some valid stuff, and basically everyone is agreeing with you...but, also trying to point out some additional nuances to all this. One of my beefs, has been all the waste associated with herd culls in the UK and elsewhere to halt the spread of disease. I don't recall the actual numbers, but I think it was in the million head of cattle range that were put down during the mad cow scare. IIRC there was a similar huge culling when swine flu was detected in the UK. When the Nipah virus was loose in Indonesia many thousands of pigs were destroyed. Currently they have been putting down millions of chickens due to the fear of bird flu in Southeast Asia. I'm sure there are many more examples. Although I understand the need to stop the spread of disease, the sight of all those animals just bulldozed into trenches is to me the epitomy of horrible waste. How much better if they could have been rendered to biodiesel. Regards, Derek
-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Bo Lozoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Aw, come on guys! Please don't try to turn me into a cardboard stereotypical > idiot; I don't appreciate it. Kim, where on earth did I ever say anyone who > raises animals for meat is like a slaveholder??? I said I raise animals too, > and eat their meat when I need to. And I ALSO said factory farming is evil, > and you and your husband do NOT FACTORY FARM! > > Just leave it alone, okay? You're twisting this all out of its original > context and fighting a battle that doesn't exist. Jeez, I'm a farmer, for > God's sake. Factory farms are not farms, they are factories. I have never > said anything that lumps you and your husband into all of that, so please > stop defending yourself. I'm not your enemy. And I repeat, no biodiesel > producer is going to be getting millions of gallons of lard or tallow from > humane family farms such as yours. You're obscuring the original point of > this e-mail dialogue, which was about huge quantities of animal wastes, not > a gallon from a goat. > > And Keith, you remind me a little of one of the talk show hosts -- no one > ever comes out better than you on your own listserve. In each of our > exchanges you found a way to chide me a little even when we were saying > practically the same thing. I'm not interested in wasting my time with > banter and petty argument. Punch my name up on Google and you'll see that > I'm one of the good guys just like you. Stop trying to make me wrong and > we'll get along a lot better. > > This is my last entry into this beef (excuse the pun). > > Bo Lozoff > > >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Factory farms vs. large cities > >Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:50:45 +0900 > > > >Hi Doug > > > >>Hi, > >> > >> Here is how my simple mind sees the situation. Unless a drastic event > >>take place to grossly reduce the human population, humans concentrated in > >>cities will remain a fact. As long as humans desire to consume animals > >>for > >>food the concentration of animals will remain a fact as well. Even if it > >>where possible to spread out the human and animal population over the > >>available land, I'm unsure if nature could safely process the waste > >>generated. To me we are going to be left with figuring out how to deal > >>with > >>both confined animal and confined human waste. Yes the animals should be > >>treated humanely, but the problem has always been defining humane. > >>Doug, N0LKK > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>-- > > > >Not true. It's possible to raise the amount of meat required in sustainable > >ways, which includes processing the waste in sustainable ways too - in fact > >it relies on that. > > > >See, for instance: > >Ley Farming > >http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley > > > >BUT that will not leave room for the current insane game of using (up) most > >of the land and most of the resources (including horrendous quantities of > >fossil fuels at every turn) to raise ag. commodities disguised as "food" > >for The Few to play casinos with (eg ADM, Cargill, Monsanto et al), at > >everybody else's expense. Back to real farming, in other words. And that's > >not a choice or an option or an alternative, it's an absolute and urgent > >necessity. > > > >As for human wastes, the main problem is what goes into the sewage system > >these days. People add all sorts of stuff that shouldn't be there and > >didn't used to be 50 years ago when people like Wylie solved the problems > >of urban composting of human wastes. Misha Gale-Sinex just sent this to > >SANET, for instance: > > > >>My problems with this--and something I'd want to see much more > >>research on before I chose to ever use human manure compost of > >>uncertain origin as a farm input--are rooted in what I used to hear > >>from chemists in Philly and elsewhere who worked in waste treatment. > >> > >>One of them, with a big municipality, told me that they adjust their > >>hourly treatment methods to account for the caffeine flush that moves > >>through the sewage system in the morning. In other words, millions of > >>people wake up, drink their coffee, pee (etc.) before leaving for > >>work--and, voila, there's suddenly a huge flush of caffeine in the > >>sewage effluent for X hours each morning. Our bodies can take up only > >>so much of any drug we use; the rest is evacuated. > >> > >>Another wastewater chemist (whom I met at a conference somewhere--but > >>he echoed what other wastewater people have told me) had deep > >>concerns that the morning flush also includes all sort of > >>prescription drugs. Bodies uptake only a portion of a given drug, and > >>what is unmetabolized is passed. > >> > >>Some folks who engineer "living machines" (biological systems for > >>cleaning up wastewater) told me the same thing. One man claimed that > >>the duck drakes in a purification marsh (part of a municipal > >>wastewater system) seemed to be behaving differently once Viagra hit > >>the market--far more aggressive in their mating, and without cease. > >>He claimed that he observed drakes rutting till they collapsed. > >>Whether this is Viagra or something else, it's clear we don't know > >>much about what we are passing through our bodies and into the > >>environment. We too are nonpoint sources of pollution. And as Dr. > >>Warren Porter and others have demonstrated, it doesn't take much of a > >>concentration of chemicals to trigger biological effects. > > > >Nonetheless, properly controlled, urban composting can deal safely with all > >that stuff. It can't deal with industrial hazwastes, and there are a couple > >of ag. pesticides it also can't deal with. Stuff like that oughtn't to be > >there anyway, so get rid of it - stop it entering the system in the first > >place. And stop wasting all that water. > > > >All these problems can be solved. If you think the US can't manage it, how > >do you think countries like India and China have managed, with less land > >and far more people? A hundred years ago China had 410 million people, and > >their wastes were not a problem - rather "nightsoil" was a valuable > >commodity, one of the (many) mainstays of soil fertility maintenance. All > >wastes were returned to the soil, where they belong. All it takes is a > >different (better and saner) mindset. That's perhaps the only real problem, > >the mindset. Well, let's put it this way: change or die. > > > >Regards > > > >Keith > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Biofuel mailing list > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
