Posted this on yahoogroups vegoil-diesel
May be of interest to people here who are not there (?)
Darren Hill
www.vegburner.co.uk
> Stephan,
>
> I just installed an Elsbett one-tank kit on an '84 Mercedes 300TD
> wagon, and it works great, but not everyone who'd like a single-tank
> system can afford the price of an Elsbett. I've seen your posts about
> increasing the opening pressure of injectors to accommodate WVO/SVO,
> and I think you've also posted about modified injector nozzle bodies
> and nozzle valves, and maybe even about glow plugs that get hotter and
> will tolerate being on longer.
>
> Do you sell any of this, or have sources - and even part numbers - for
> any of it?
>
> Thanks,
> Craig
Craig
As Stephan hasn't got back yet here is something to chew on for the time
being. A gold mine. All of it, and maybe more, although I think this
is most of the usefull info., should be in the yahoo archieves.
:-
So the Duratherm plugs are a brand name by Bosch. There are however
equivalent Champion/NGK and Beru products. I'm surprized to hear that
Bosch are the cheapest. Those Duratherm plugs become hotter and can
stand higher temperatures during the after start heating period ( and as
well some cars have intermediate heating as e.g. newer Vauxhall/Opel
Astra whirlchamber engines). All you need are the plugs and a relais
that supports after start heating. Normally, you preheating is switched
off when you turn the keys to start the engine. Depending on coolant
water temperature the after start relais keeps the plugs heating up to 3
min after start. So your engine will have a better idle speed after cold
starts.
Prices: AFA I can remember, the relais was about 90,-DM= 30 GBP; plugs
cost about 120 DM = 40 GBP. So about 70 GBP should be enough for it.
However, a cheap source is Henzo at www.dieselsend.de. I don't
participate in his business and I'm not marketing him, but he is a
member of our two German forums and his prices are bargains usually. So
maybe write him an e-mail. He does speak English as well.
- VW uses an oil cooler heat exchanger which is between oil filter
and
filter holder. Can be used as coolant water heater for vegoil. You can
fix a fuel filter instead of the oil filter and the fuel filter can be
heated as well with this. That keeps the filter from getting clogged in
winter.
- Audi A 8 TDI uses a fuel cooler (!) to cool down hot fuel before it
goes back into the plastic tank. It's very small and efficient. Produced
by Austrian KTM company.
- Peugeot uses water heated fuel filters
- Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall and many more use an 150W electric Bosch fuel
filter heater which is mounted between fuel filter and filter holder.
You will just need to modify the temperature relais as it switches off
at 15°C originally.
- Lots of different types of glow plugs can be used for fuel preheaters.
---------------------------------------
12 nozzles have a much better spray pattern than 0° nozzles which you
can find in whirl- and prechamber diesels, normally. 12° nozzles only
make sense with whirlchamber diesels. 12° nozzles don't have a straight
tip of nozzle but a conical shape of it (hope I got it rith with this).
This gives a much finer fuel spray even with cold, thicker vegoil. These
nozzles also generate a little preinjection. This results into smoother
ignitions as not all injected fuel is ignites at once in a "big"
explosion. Expecially with vegoil diesels often run very rough at idle
speed. Vegoil has a much more delayed ignition than diesel. This results
into a suddan combustion of all injected fuel as there is more time to
inject fuel between the opening of the nozzle and the piont of self
ignition. Fuel just accumulates in the whirlchamber until it
self-ignites. So it's clear that much more fuel can accumulate if the
ignition takes place later. 12° nozzles start with a small beam of fuel
which can ignite first. The main load is injected after the first
ignition and can ignite as well which gives a much better combustion and
less smoke. Nozzle types are any Bosch DN 12 SD xxx or Lucas
equivalents. Find them e.g. in Ford 1,8L D/TD engines type:
RFM/RFN/RTA/RTE/RTF/RTH most likely as Rotodiesel/Lucas injectors.
Longer glow plugs improve cold starts and also avoid bad idling after
start (if you use an after start heating relais). Normally glow plugs
for whirlchamber VWs are afaik 21mm. Use 23mm (= 2mm more) and the tip
of plug will be slightly within the spray cone of the injector. If fuel
hits the hot plug it will ignite easier- especially in winter.
BUT: as the plug will *always* be within the spray cone, it will be
within the flames and must stand more heat than actually intended.
Therefore *only* use "Bosch Cromium / Duratherm" or Beru/Lucas
equivalents!!! Otherwise plugs will be burnt off and particles can get
into the combustion chamber and destroy valves, whirlchambers, the
piston or even the turbocharger. However, many people with those
Duratherm/Cromiums used them successfully without problems. Maybe
contact Henzo for cheap plugs. Feel free to call me if there are
questions left.
Stephan
It's not a TDI. That's why we can talk about one tank solution. The
wider angle referred to the spray cone of the nozzle injector. Combined
with a longer glow plug it's the perfect one tank conversion for
whirlchamber diesels. You only need to take care you have clean filtered
oil and don't run the engine (and so the pump) over 2000rpm until the
heat exchanger is warmed up.
Hello Sebastian
I'm just going through your questions as they came:
1.) Heating diesel up to vegoil temperature does no harm to the engine
or produce any danger. It only can lead to a loss of power as heated
diesel had a still lower density and actually more would have to be
injected to make up for lower density. But as this is not the case you
might feel your car a bit weaker than with vegoil. If you have a glow
plug heater: Either switch it of or if it has a high-temp shut off (e.g.
a bimetal-switch) leave it as it is. Only make sure it realls *has* an
emergency shut off at above 70°C.
2.) I also have coked injectors. This leads to a noisy engine sometimes
and on half load it produces a rocking manner of the engine. Do you have
12°s?? They get a little "crown" or a "hat" of soot on top of the
pintle. Simply remove it- but it will come back. Henzo and some others
have recently testet another injector used in the AAZ engine (Golf 3td;
1,9L). They seem to have a higher flow capacity and also use a little
preinjection. Though they are 0°s they had very good results and much
more power than with any other injector before. I will test it as well
and see... They are labled "DN 0 SD 294". Install them with 165bar on
turbodiesels or with 145bar in ordinary ones.
3.) Yes. Also 12° nozzles need support from longer glow plugs (e.g. 4
Glowplugs BOSCH Duraterm Chromium 0 250 201 045 (25 mm instead of only
21mm) EUR 83,-- from Henzo alternativ für 36,-€/Sück bei Beru GN 909).
Otherwise you will need to start twice- also depending on the
oil-quality. We also know something we call "sawing"- the engine speed
goes up and down in waves for the first time after start. That's due to
bad combustion in cold engines. It will disappear with an after start
glow plug relais (*and* longer plugs) mostly.
4.) SVO gives less particles when the engine is warm. Cold starts are
still a problem, but smoke can be reduced by the above mentioned efforts
with relais and longer plugs. Most people have about half the k-values
at MOT emmision tests.
OK, hope that helps.
Stephan
Yes you can. But it depnds on what you call an ordinary injector.
Mercedes, Vauxhall, VW etc. usually have the KCA size nozzle holders
with a afaik M 24 thread for the cylinder head. These injectors have two
parts. The upper parts contains the fuel line adapters and the leak
hoses. The lower part contains the actual injector nozzle whereas in the
upper part there is only the spring that determines the opening
pressure. Changing the injector nozzles works as follows: 1. threw out
the injector of the cylinder head. The engine should be worm as
otherwise you might damage the thread in the aluminium. 2. fix the
injector upside down into a vice. 3. open it just a little bit and then
get it out of the vice and go on by hand. 4. get it upright again and
lift off the upper part. The spring will come out and if you are lucky
the little plate as well which is on top of the spring. Thicker plates
will increase the spring pressure and with this the opening pressure. 5.
the lower parts consists of a ring with two little holes. In the middle
is the pintle. Only get off the ring first and then you can get the
whole nozzle inlet including the pintle.
This should have a number like DN 0 SD xxx.
6. Installing: Just go back the same way.
7. IMPORTANT: Make sure your workspace is really clean. Otherwise
injectors won't work properly anymore afterwards. Landrover 110 single
tank
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 23:40:05 -0000
From: "emerson109" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Lucas/CAV pumps
I have been discussing this issue with a fellow from Germany who has
been running his 110 Land Rover on SVO for about 40,000 km so far
with no problems. Of course, this could be the exception that proves
the rule, but there are a few points here.
1) Most cars with the cav setup use the injector pump as the primary
lift pump. The land rover has a mechanical lift pump that pulls the
fuel from the tank and through the filters so the injector pump only
has to pull the fuel about 15-20 cm from the lift pump. This must
reduce the stress that the injector pump is subjected to. Apparently
one of the ways that the pumps fail is when the fibre vanes in the
injector pump self destruct under the extra strain of pulling up the
thicker svo.
2) It is unclear how many of the vehicles with problems were running
on cold fuel, or were filtering their fuel properly.
3) The land rover uses a DPS pump (like the Ford Transit van) while
most of the other vehicles use a DPC pump. Michael is not sure how
different these pumps are, or how significant the difference is.
4) According to Michael, there are two basic ways that the injector
pumps fail. One is when the vanes on the lift part of the pump are
destroyed, presumably from the extra viscosity of the svo. The other
is when the rotating piston seizes in the case, also presumably from
the thicker svo and perhaps from particles in the fuel.
5) What Michael has done is replace the fibre vanes in the pump with
metal vanes which come standard in the Transit van DPS pump. He also
dismantled the pump, tested the resistance of the piston with diesel,
compared it when it was with svo (it was higher) and then lapped it
until it had the same smoothness with the svo. He is also planning
on installing a primary electric lift pump right at the fuel tank to
help out the mechanical pump.
6) As well, Michal preheats the fuel to about 80 Celsius, and has
increased the injection pressure of the injectors by about 10 bar.
It should be noted that he is using a single tank system, and starts
up and shuts down on svo with no problems. It should also be noted
that he is using fresh canola oil, not waste oil, which could have an
adverse effect.
Again, one success does not make a study, but it seems to me that the
above modifications seem to address at least some of the potential
issues with using these pumps. Michael also has lots of accounts of
the Bosch VE pumps dying as well...
Anyway, I am going to try this on my 2.5 D land rover as well.
However, I will be ensuring that I have a replacement pump with me,
just in case... ;-)
Clinton
Hi Darren,
Just a further information on that one point with the self cleaning
injectors:
It has recently turned out that the wide spray injector 12° (Bosch: DN
12 SD xxx) does indeed improve cold start and leads to a more smoothly
running engine but there is a real loss of power in higher revvs. What
has already given speed event
*** Not sure exactly what is ment here? Engine runs with more power?-
Darren***
to T3s are nozzles from the Golf 3 engines
1,9L (AAZ/1Y: DN 0 Sd 294/297). They are 0° flat cut pintle nozzles. The
flat cut on the pintle (which is actually round but flatened on one
side) also gives a short pre-injection, so the main injection goes into
already burning fuel in the chamber. The flat cut also functions as a
self cleaning device: The fuel jet just washes away soot and particles.
12° nozzles have a rather wide pintle which gets a big crown of soot
after some 1000km. Then the spray pattern is nearly down.
Stephan
--
Mercedes Nozzles
Hello Darren,
I have more info on Mercedes self cleaning flat cut nozzles: -DN0SD1510
and DN0SD220 are without pre-injection; -They can be replaced by
DN0SD261, 265 etc. -DN0SD240 are hole-type pintle nozzles. They have a
drill along inside the pintle, where the preinjection goes through.
-DN0SD310 und 314 are also flat cut nozzles. However, they differ a bit
in pintle diametre and needle weight. -VW-nozzles DN0SD297 are similar
to DN0SD265 so they could be used as well perhaps.
Normally Mercs prechambers have 115 bar. To improve self cleaning adjust
them to 135 bar.
From: Stephan Helbig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Again: NO 12° nozzles for prechamber engines!
Hi Sebastian,
This is the most important point: 12° nozzles woun't help in a
prechamber engine. On the contrary- it ill even get worse!
About prechambers:
I don't have a picture of a prechamber but it's like a little cylinder
and down in the middle of it there is a little ball- like piece. This is
where the fuel is injected onto. It than splashes in all directions and
so gets "sprayed" and evaporated in the hot air. To get this working you
need a concentrated beam of fuel. Imagine a garden water hose: with a
concentrated beam of water you can aim at a round stone. But you can't
with a wide open fine spraycone. The latter would be your 12° nozzle.
You wouln't hit the ball in the chamber and the fuel is not well enough
mixed with air. And by the way you might destroy the prechamber as the
temperature distribution within will be completely different. A
prechamber has several little wholes that let the air and the pressure
go on top of the piston.
A whirlchamber is a round prechamber (like a bubble in the cylinder
head). The incoming air come through a single channel- tangentially to
the centre of the chamber. This causes a whirl (or actually it's a
little "storm" already) into which the fuel is sprayed into on the
opposite of the channel- again tangentially. This way it mixes well with
the air and can so burn more efficiantly as in a prechamber. Also the
bigger channel to the piston means less loss of energy of high pressure
combustion gases. So whirlchamber engines are mostly more efficient than
classical prechambers. Anyway a whirlchamber is just a later improvement
of a prechamber.
You'll find prechambers actually only in Mercedes cars and those which
are fitted with Merc engines. Mercedes did not build any whirlchamber
engines. But you can find them in nearly all other indirect injector
diesels as this was the latest technology before direct injection came
into fashion with small fast diesel engines.
So better NOT buy 12° nozzles for your W 123.
What you can do is: Raise the opening pressure of your nozzles from 115
bar to 125-130 bar. This gives you a stronger fuel beam and with this a
better air-fuel mixture in the prechamber. You can do this by opening
the nozzle and in the upper part, still behind the spring there is a
little metal ring of a certain strength. Just replace it by a thicker
one. 0,01mm is about 10 bar. However you will need an injector test
pump.
Stephan
-----------------
Also this is relevent to prechamber design in Mercedes if that interests
you.....
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Marshall Booth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 08 September 2002 00:51
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [DIESEL] Pre Chamber Design
I'll simply quote from the Bosch book "Diesel Fuel Injection" '94 ISBN
1-56091-542-0
"Diesel combustion principle"
"Prechamber systems"
"In the prechamber system for passen-
ger-car diesel engines, the fuel is in-
jected into a hot prechamber (auxiliary
chamber). Here, pre-combustion is in-
itiated in order to achieve good mixture
formation with reduced ignition lag for
the main combustion process (Fig. 1).
The fuel is injected with a throttling
pintle nozzle at a relatively low pressure
(up to 300 bar). A specially designed
baffle surface in the center of the
chamber distributes the fuel jet which
strikes it and mixes it intensively with
air. Combustion starts and drives the
partially-combusted air-fuel mixture
through bores at the bottom end of the
prechamber into the main combustion
chamber above the piston, the mixture
heating up even further in the process.
Here, intensive mixing takes place with
the air in the main combustion chamber
and combustion is continued and com-
pleted. A short ignition lag and con-
trolled release of energy at a low overall
pressure level in the main combustion
chamber lead to "soft" combustion with
low noise and less load on the engine.
An optimized version of the prechamber
permits combustion with an even lower
toxic-substance content in the exhaust
gas and an average of 40% less
particulate emission. A modified pre-
chamber shape, with evaporation re-
cess and a changed shape and position
of the baffle surface (ball pin), imparts a
specific swirling action to the air after it
flows out of the cylinder into the
prechamber following compression. The
fuel is injected at an angle of 5 degrees
to the prechamber's axis (Figure 1).
The glow plug is located downstream of
the air flow to prevent it from interfering
with the combustion process.
Controlled post-glowing for up to 1
minute after cold starting (depending on
the coolant temperature) contributes to
improvement of the exhaust gas and
reduction of noise in the warm-up
period."
That sure doesn't cover ALL the fine points, but it DOES touch the main
issues.
Marshall
--
Marshall Booth
"der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 154Kmi,'87 190D 2.5 205Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 224Kmi, '85 190D 2.0
154Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 200+kmi, '84 190D 2.2 234Kmi dismantled
Diesel Technical Advisor MBCA, member GWSection
http://www.dhc.net/~pmhack/mercedes/mbooth1.htm
Darren, While modified at least once, the prechambers in the OM617
engines are of the vertical or conventional injection model and the
early ('84-'85) OM60x engines used similar prechambers. By '87 the
optimized designs with 5 degree offset and a modified ball pin were
being incorporated into some engines (both of my 602 engines and every
other 602 engine I've ever seen have such prechambers - but my '87
603.96 engine and all other 603s that I've seen do not - though MB
states that both vertical and inclined injection were used
interchangeably in the 602/603 engines). By the early '90s all MB
diesels that I know of used the optimized design.
The Bosch book summarizes the prechamber, whirl-chamber and direct
injection processes and the principle advantages/disadvatages of each.
Indirect systems provide engines that are quite "civilized" and suitable
for passenger car service. Direct injection will deliver improved
economy at the expense of noise and lower maximum engine speeds. VERY
complex injection system control CAN compenstae for the direct injection
engine shortcomings and make it suitable for passenger car service (and
the CDI - TDI engines available today are testament to that).
Marshall
--
Marshall Booth
"der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 154Kmi,'87 190D 2.5 205Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 224Kmi, '85 190D 2.0
154Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 200+kmi, '84 190D 2.2 234Kmi dismantled
Diesel Technical Advisor MBCA, member GWSection
http://www.dhc.net/~pmhack/mercedes/mbooth1.htm
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All very interesting (If your into this kind of thing)
I was thinking about trying to find a (possably marine) injector
specialist to find out what the difference is between injectors that
handle diesel fuel and heavier oils, especially for smaller engines that
are also used in a road vehicle application, engines that are available
in a marine or industrial format are likely to have suitable injectors
available (I think)
I know Coachgeo3 had brought up something similar recently('pilot oil'
injectors?) on the biodiesel-infopop forum
These injectors should in theory produce better results with VO
A good understanding of injectors would bring things forward,
unfortunately the processes involved with injection and combustion are
very complicated and not easily studied. Monitored trials are one way
DIYers could progress with this(What Stephan and others have found by
using the 12deg nozzles in VWs, it does help with cold starting but they
do coke up after time, see above)although care would have to be taken to
avoid expensive mistakes....
This is from the ACREVO study
____________
Pyrolysis and combustion of vegetable oil fuel sprays These aspects have
been examined in a shock tube between 900 and 2000 K at pressures
between 3 and 20 + bar and with different fuel/oxygen ratios. High speed
video photography has shown how the high pressure spray in injected into
the reaction volume and is mixed by natural swirl. Homogeneous or
heterogeneous combustion could be produced by injecting the fuel either
before or after shock reflection. Combustion occurs near the end-plate
where fuel droplets have been conditioned the longest time and near the
side wall where the droplet/fuel density is greatest. The combustion
spreads very quickly throughout the reactive volume containing the fuel.
Fuels which contains either rapeseed oil other methyl esters burn in a
different manner to normal Diesel, where the flame was reasonably
uniform. With vegetable oil fuels pockets of burning could be seen, some
of which persisted for long times suggesting that these were larger
droplets which burned as a diffusion flame for times longer than the
available than those available in an engine. Thus they were potential
carbonising nuclei for the walls of a burner or engine.
A second injection of fuel at a later time directly, under the high
temperature pressure conditions, gave a very rapid combustion over the
reaction volume where the previous phenomenon was not seen but soot like
clouds could be detected by photography. Pyrolysis of fuel at these high
temperatures resulted in a much greater light emission which saturated
the CCD camera.
_______________
Suggest that a injector with some kind of pre-injection would be
superior, going through the posts above from Stephan (and some of my own
investigations) have led me to believe that this kind of injector is not
uncommon particularly in later IDI engines.
Also this......... Although they are heater or furnace type of atomisers
not ICE (internal Combustion Engine)the results as stated do bare
relevence and appears to back up increased injection pressure
--------------------
The ability of a pure vegetable (VO) oil, the rape seed oil, to be
atomised for combustion or engine purposes has been tested. Since the VO
is very viscous at low temperatures, it was necessary to heat it to
achieve the required increase in atomisation performances. VO was
compared to two classical liquids: water, of interest in many
fundamental studies of atomisation, and fuel oil, the practical interest
of which is evident.
Tests were carried out with two types of atomisers of current use in
combustion. Two atomisers were used, one of them (a pressure swirl
atomiser) specially designed and built in Rouen for this study, the
other was a standard Diesel injector.
The tests were not reduced to simple measurements of particle size
distributions, but a complete qualitative and quantitative study of the
sprays was conducted from direct optical observation and imaging. The
analysis of results depended on the atomiser used. In the case of the
pressure swirl atomiser, the processes involved (internal hydrodynamics,
sheet instability, break up and drop formation) are sufficiently well
known, and some predictions are at the moment possible. The results
(cone angles, discharge coefficient, mean drop sizes etc.) could be
analysed within the scope of the action of the main parameters
(pressure, viscosity...). The study was reduced to atmospheric
pressures, since this is the condition generally used use for this kind
of injector (industrial furnaces for example). For Diesel sprays, the
exact influence of the complex processes involved in liquid jet break up
are not yet sufficiently known. Hence, the exploitation of the results
was necessarily more elementary. Nevertheless information of primary
interest for the practical use of VO in engines could be found in this
work.
For use with pressure swirl atomiser, similar values of discharge
coefficients may be obtained for fuel oil and heated (90-130 °C) VO. But
the injection pressures needed to reach a stable zone (zone of pressure
in which these angle or coefficient are independent of injection
pressure) are much higher for VO than for fuel oil. This results in
greater exit velocities and atomisation processes which are certainly
complex. In addition, values of SMD
Whats SMD ? -Darren
are systematically greater at a given pressure for VO than for fuel oil.
Even if these values begin to be comparable between VO at 130 °C and
fuel oil, this is only obtained for high injection pressures (more than
20 Bar) As a summary, it may be recommended, for any attempt of using VO
in an engine, to use the rape seed oil at relatively high temperature,
of order 100-130 °C. An order of magnitude of drop sizes similar for
fuel oil and VO may be found. But for Diesel sprays, the sensitivity to
ambient air temperature is greater for VO than for FO.
------------------
We can learn from what others are doing Elsbett have over 20 years
experience of SVO conversions, giving them good time to have tested
different nozzles. Understandably they are not to keen to share their
discoveries.
Stephan, Henzo (from www.dieselsend.de) and others in Germany are
pushing things forward for the DIYers. Obviously this work is
experimental but with carefull monitering can give good results and in
my opinion is very worth while (although a lot may be going over what
Elsbett has already achieved.
Also...
This used to be on the Elsbett site as an English translation of a page
similar to this (translated by google)
http://translate.google.com/translate_n?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.arcor.de%2Fg
erda01%2Felsbeth%2Felsbeth.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
It relates to the injection system on their own multifuel DI engine, the
self cleaning nozzles are all that appear relevent (unless your going to
build an engine from scratch)
--------------------
THE ELSBETT FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM
The fuel in the ELSBETT engine is injected locally and tangentially
inside the central combustion area within the chamber. This process
prevents the fuel and its residue from making contact with the walls,
thus minimising the loss of heat.
For this reason the injection nozzles have one aperture with a
self-cleaning needle, and are arranged in a specific position and at a
specific angle.
Injector nozzle Detail of pintle nozzle
The built-in injection control system, which is a feature of ELSBETT
engines, adjusts perfectly to the specific characteristics of each
engine, and renders an additional injection pump unnecessary, thus
reducing the number of parts and the weight of the engine.
Simple injection Double injection
Larger engines are fitted with a dual injection system to minimise
emissions. Each cylinder is fitted with two injection nozzles which are
tangentially symmetrical.
Soot forms when the temperature, caused by the combustion of fuel at the
beginning of the injection process, causes the decomposition of the fuel
injected at the end of the injection process. The inclusion of a second
injection nozzle in each cylinder makes it possible to reduce the
injection time by almost 50%, and this substantially reduces the
emission of soot and allows soot filters to be dispensed with.
---------------------
I think that’s about all I have at this time, I'm most interested
though...
Darren
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