Hello Ken >An interesting report although somewhat wrong in my >opinion. Do the authors have an axe to grind, part of >the lunatic fringe, or a special interest group paid >by someone to promote one version of the “truth”? Do >these authors have any certifiable knowledge or >experience in the area of hydrogen fuels (or any fuels >for that matter), agriculture, or the energy supply >chain (any supply chain would do)?
Considerable experience. See: Institute for Local Self-Reliance http://www.ilsr.org/ Carbohydrate Economy Clearinghouse (CEC) http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/ ME3 - Sustainable Minnesota - Home of Minnesotans for an Energy-Efficient Economy http://www.me3.org/ > > "Because hydrogen always comes attached to another > > element, it often > > takes more energy to make and deliver hydrogen than > > is contained in > > the hydrogen itself," said Morris, > >It’s true that H2 doesn’t exist on Earth except on >it’s way to outer space after escaping from a hydrogen >production facility. Burning hydrocarbons also >involves oxidizing hydrogen to water as is the case in >a hydrogen fuel cell and I don’t understand the >argument presented. No element contains any useful >chemical energy per se and it’s the differences in >energy between chemical systems/states that is >exploited by heat engines/batteries/fuel cells. The >author doesn’t seem to understand the subject for >which he is advising presidents. It’s a scary world >out there. David Morris certainly understands his subject, which probably disqualifies him from advising some presidents, or at least from being listened to. > > Morris' report recommends a three-pronged strategy. > > First, > > dramatically accelerate the use of hybrid vehicles. > > Given their > > 30-50 percent improvement in energy efficiency this > > action alone > > could cut oil imports into the United States by > > half. > > >Ok hybrid cars save energy mostly by not requiring 200 >hp internal combustion engines that only need to >average 20 hp during typical driving. The 200 hp is >for acceleration and big engines waste fuel while >idling and being used at low power. There have been >engines designed by Detroit with variable cylinders in >use depending on need, but they didn’t sell very well >as I recall. I wonder if they tried to sell them? Their record on EVs, despite demand, and on the PNGV program, and much besides, doesn't speak well for them. They push some things and not others and use a manufactured "demand" as an excuse - advertising, marketing and PR are not ineffective forces, not with hundreds of billions of dollars spent on them a year. > > Second, increase the electric-only driving capacity > > of the hybrid > > electric vehicle (HEV) by expanding its battery > > system and including > > a plug-in capability. This could reduce engine fuel > > consumption by > > 85 percent or more and allow the vehicle to operate > > primarily on > > electricity from the grid system. > > > >The problem with plugging into the grid is that the >grid needs excess capacity to charge up all those >vehicles. Energy is conserved and must come from >somewhere and I expect imported oil. There is no net >some gain plugging into the grid except that power >companies produce power more efficiently than internal >combustion engines. Include new power plant costs >into the equation and it could take quite a bit of >time to break even with an all eclectic vehicle >economy. Why "all electric vehicle"? Total replacement won't work so forget the whole thing? See below. > > The electricity needed by plug-in HEVs could come > > from rapidly > > increasing the output of renewable energy sources > > such as > > wind-generated electricity. Morris noted that > > wind-generated > > electricity is already competitive or nearly > > competitive with fossil > > fuel generated electricity. Wind-generated > > hydrogen, on the other > > hand, is two to three times more expensive than > > fossil fuel-generated > > hydrogen. > > >I wonder how many wind turbines it would take to >replace fossil fuels used by vehicles? Or how much biodiesel? Or ethanol? Ken, that question is often used to dismiss alternatives: too many/much, so forget it. It's the wrong question, on two counts. First is that a rational and sustainable energy future will require not just one, but all available alternative technologies, used in combination as appropriate. Second is that simply replacing fossil fuels is not in itself a sustainable nor probably an achievable goal. Whether transport fuels or generally, eergy use has to be greatly reduced, energy efficiency has to be greatly improved, and energy supply has to be decentralised to the local level. In that context wind turbines, especially small, household-scale wind turbines as recently discussed at the Biofuel list, have a significant role to play, along with all the other ready-to-use technologies. >Are there >enough windy places near the power grid to do this? >How about all the dead birds and change in weather, >would it be global warming or cooling taking so much >energy out of the Earth’s atmosphere. I believe a >problem with these types of articles is a total lack >of quantitative analysis on the part of the authors. >Just some biodiesel and wind will solve the energy >"crisis" - not! See above. (The dead birds issue was also discussed in the wind thread at the Biofuel list.) > > Third, use ethanol made from sugars as a primary > > fuel rather than, as > > now, a 6-10 percent gasoline additive. In the > > United States these > > sugars come from corn. In Brazil they come from > > sugar cane, in > > Europe from wheat. Commercial operations to use the > > sugars extracted > > from the far more abundant cellulosic resources, > > like grasses, corn > > stalks, wheat straw and urban organic wastes, are > > beginning to come > > on-line. > > > > "A sugar economy makes more sense than a hydrogen > > economy," said > > Morris. "Ethanol is less expensive to produce than > > hydrogen, it is > > more environmentally friendly than hydrogen produced > > from > > nonrenewable resources, and ethanol production could > > bring major > > economic benefits to Minnesota's rural areas. > > >It’s a question of food to fuel and is this the best >way to go? It's not a question of food to fuel, that's a red herring. Please see: Biofuels - Food or Fuel? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html And: Is ethanol energy-efficient? http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html >I read an NREL report awhile back that >claims syngas is the most efficient and competitive >alternative. Maybe so because the entire biomas can >be used and there is no intermediary fermentation >step. Whether or not syngas is the most efficient and competitive alternative isn't really that relevant, it is one alternative among many and they're all needed. What is most efficient and competitive varies very widely, in reality there's no one-size-fits-all solution, this kind of top-down approach warps reality. As we can see today. Anyway, competitive with what? With fossil fuels? While we all pretend not to notice the massive fossil fuel subsidies, visible and hidden, and talk about "level playing fields"? No you didn't, I know, but that's the usual ploy. Best wishes Keith >BTW the US$1 million per vehicle and a $600,000 per >fuel station cost is absurd even for the military. > >Best regards, >Ken Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. 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