Hi Mike I think your right I will probably head back to the single stage it seem a lot easier. Cheers Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs
> FWIW, I tried the foolproof method off and on for a qhile and finally > went back to the old tried and true. I never could get it to work > reliably. > > Ian & Theresa Sims wrote: > >>Some reassurance please. >>After months of single stage manufacture and reactor modifications I was >>about to jump into the Foolproof method. But now Bob in a, I assume well >>equiped Lab can't get the process to work completely. >>What Gives? How much chance do I have in a back yard with home made and >>jerry rigged equipment. >>Alex Kac also states that mixing methanol and sulphuric acid together is >>can >>cause serious problems. Once again what gives? >> >>Cheers Ian >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:42 PM >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs >> >> >> >> >>>Appal Energy wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Bob, >>>> >>>>Why not drain the small amount of glycerol that settles out of an >>>>esterification? The majority of the sulfuric will come out with it. That >>>>lessens the amount of base catalyst needed for the follow-up >>>>transesterification. >>>> >>>> >>>again, this is just what I observed: no glycerin settled out after the >>>acid stage. Waiting 8 hours >>>realistically means another day. Additionally, if I do wait and do get >>>some glycerin to settle out >>>with my conditions, wouldn't you think that methanol also would be part >>>of >>>the cocktail, thence >>>affecting the equilibrium? >>> >>> >>> >>>>Fewer chemicals in, fewer problems out. >>>> >>>>Todd Swearingen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>bob allen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>In my lab I have had little success with the acid/base method for >>>>>biodiesel production. When my >>>>>students and I tried to duplicate the foolproof method >>>>> >>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html >>>>> >>>>>we invariably obtained incomplete reactions, plus the longer >>>>>preparation >>>>>time was less attractive. >>>>>The following is my modification of that procedure which works for us, >>>>>and takes less time, but >>>>>requires more catalyst. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Dissolve 1 ml sulfuric acid in 150 ml methanol and add to 1 liter liter >>>>>dry wvo, heat to about 60 >>>>>Celsius for one hour. Then dissolve 4.9gm NaOH in 50 ml methanol and >>>>>add to the reaction >>>>>mixture. Continue heating for an additional hour, stir for one more >>>>>hour >>>>>and then let set for 8 or >>>>>more hours. workup as usual. >>>>> >>>>>Now for the why more catalyst. Basically the sulfuric acid used >>>>>neutralizes some of the base >>>>>catalyst, hence more must be add to get back to the desired >>>>>concentration >>>>>of catalyst. If you don't >>>>>know moles and equivalents, the following may be abstruse. >>>>> >>>>>1 ml sulfuric acid is 36 milliequivalents, therefore its presence in >>>>>the >>>>>reaction mixture >>>>>neutralizes 36 milliequivalents of NaOH. The simple base catalyzed >>>>>method requires 3.5 grams NaOH >>>>>which is 90 milliequivalents. Subtract 36 from 90 and you get 54 >>>>>milliequivalents of base left. >>>>>This corresponds to to only 2.1 grams NaOH active active catalyst, the >>>>>remainder having been >>>>>converted to Na(2)SO(4), sodium sulfate. In round numbers then you >>>>>have >>>>>to add an additional 1.4 >>>>>grams of NaOH on top of the 3.5 grams called for in the simple >>>>>procedure. >>>>> >>>>>The following instructions are intended for an advanced audience, >>>>>thoroughly familiar with the >>>>>simple procedure. To minimize costs we still do a titration. If the >>>>>wvo >>>>>titrates at greater than >>>>>1.4 ml, we use this modification, less we use the simple procedure. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>All this having be said, I actually use KOH in my procedure but have >>>>>done >>>>>the calculations with >>>>>NaOH, it works either way, one just has to adjust the molar >>>>>proportions. >>>>> >>>>>Acknowledgment should be given to Kelly Verbel and Josh Lisko, students >>>>>who worked with me on this >>>>>part of our biodiesel project. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>> >>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>> >>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>messages): >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>-- >>>Bob Allen >>>http://ozarker.org/bob >>> >>>"Science is what we have learned about how to keep >>>from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Biofuel mailing list >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>messages): >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.8/215 - Release Date: >>>27/12/2005 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release Date: 2/01/2006 > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/