Hallo Mike, Saturday, 22 April, 2006, 11:14:02, you wrote:
MR> Wow Gustl! MR> That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason in MR> all of it and I agree with nearly all of it. Thank you. I try. Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but I do try. MR> You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least one MR> distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and not MR> Jewish) and another who hid a Jew until the end of the war (They MR> later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance of MR> some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what it MR> means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of the MR> book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becoming MR> disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled the MR> same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla. MR> He hated everyone! This is something we could spend a long time on but it isn't worth the trouble. I personally have a strong dislike of all governments while understanding the need for them given our evolution as a society (worldwide, not just the US). Hitler certainly had a lot more to say about the Slavs than he did of the Jews and held a lot more hate for the Slavs. If the notion ever strikes you read a lot of Mircea Eliade, Joseph Cambell, Carl Jung and some Heinrich Zimmer just for drill and then keeping what you have learned in mind find and read "The Young Hitler I Knew" by August Kubizek and then re-read Mein Kampf and see what you come up with. I think you will be surprised how differently you look at things, but perhaps not. It won't justify Hitler and what he did but it will give you an understanding of how his mind worked and why he did what he did if you can remain dispassionate which is not easy to do. And a note about the swastika. It has been a positive religious symbol for millenia and it is a shame that we in the west have let the misuse of this symbol taint our way of thinking about it. It is still in wide use in the east as a respected religious symbol and it pops up in places one would not think it would be if their only experience with it is during the Hitlerzeit. There is a swastika border around the walls of the supreme court and there are swastikas in ancient temples in Israel. The swastika is the innocent victim of willful misuse and should not suffer because of that. It was also the first Christian symbol called the crux gammada and it symbolized the trinity. MR> You wrote: "The United States cannot be compared to post WWI MR> Germany in any way." MR> ...in any way? I think that the Weimar Republic was an early MR> redistribution of power for which the powerful (or those with MR> ambitions of being powerful) did not stand. Although the events at MR> the end of the Weimar republic does not exactly match our own, the MR> US government actively seeks ways to keep down public MR> participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similarities MR> end there. I believe I will stick by my statement for the most part. All governments do what you suggest. I have no argument there. But I would compare the Weimar Republic more to the situation of and government of Iraq. It was/is an imposed system from a foreign conqueror in both cases. Germany had the Kaiser and Iraq Sadaam and both had just lost a war. Just as in post war Germany there are warring factions which like neither the government nor each other and there is civil strife and unrest and war. We will have to hide and watch to see if Iraq ends up like Weimar. Good talking with you brother. Again, I apologize for the necessity of my late reply. Happy Happy, Gustl MR> Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: MR> Hallo Michael, MR> Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answer MR> this. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areas MR> here and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And my MR> mail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and was MR> not aimed at you or yours in any manner. MR> Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote: MR>> Hallo Gustl, MR>> Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past three MR>> or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to strongly MR>> disagree with you assessment. MR>> Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating with MR>> me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's for MR>> the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy. MR>> Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering and MR>> embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (if MR>> permitted) and generally exposing them and the twisted MR>> interpretation of the issues they represent. MR> You misunderstand me perhaps. This was a general statement of what I MR> have witnessed in the past, quite recent past as concerns Toledo, and MR> not about you and yours at all. MR>> If you want to know who's violent, follow the rhetoric and pay MR>> close attention to those provoking violent conflict. If you want MR>> to know who's interested in social change through peaceful MR>> demonstrations, follow the picket signs, leaflets and leaders of MR>> those who believe in the power of public consensus. MR> Yes, pay attention to who is provoking violent conflict, but rhetoric MR> is not what provokes folks to violence. We are free, in this land of MR> liberty and freedom (sarcasm here), to say anything we want, call MR> anyone anything we want, so long as we don't urge people to do MR> violence or break the law. People lacking self-discipline, MR> self-restraint and acting irresponsibly may initiate violent acts, but MR> it was not generally the rhetoric which incited the violence. Most MR> folks going to these things generally have a certain mindset and when MR> the people at the podium start speaking they follow that mindset. MR> Then, when all is said and done and the violence has happened they say MR> something like, "Well, I was only there to listen but then they said, MR> (place the magic word or phrase here), and I just COULDN'T let them MR> get away with saying that." Why not? Hot air is still just hot air. MR>> The agitators ARE NOT PEACEFUL demonstrators who oppose war and MR>> racism. However, if I get attacked by a NAZI (for example), that MR>> person can expect an effective self defense. MR> The agitators can only agitate those willing to be agitated brother. MR> I have watched these neo-Nazi gatherings and the Nazi's stand up there MR> and spout their stuff and stand around like little wooden soldiers and MR> then are generally attacked by some of those in the listening crowd MR> which gives the Nazi's the absolute right to say that they were only MR> defending themselves. I have seen half a dozen of these gatherings MR> personally and it has ALWAYS been the Nazi's who have been attacked in MR> the first place. All they were doing was exercising their right to MR> peaceful assembly and free speech no matter how odious we may consider MR> the speech to be. It is not just the people with whom we agree who MR> have the right to assemble and speak. MR> What kind of weak minded person would allow the speech of another to MR> "cause" them to do violence and then offer up the excuse of being MR> provoked by the others words, particularly when they were not forced MR> to be at that place and listen in the first place? It just doesn't MR> make sense. MR>> The press "reports" the violence of PEACEFUL demonstrations, as MR>> represented by the "authorities". MR>> Your wrote (not what you think): "You see what those people are MR>> like? Just like we told you." MR>> We've had numerous threads on the so called "main stream media". MR>> They are part of the problem to which the educated (liberal MR>> definition of "educated") and conscientious should not yield. Let MR>> them report what they want. The opposition will use other means to MR>> spread the truth. MR> Yes, unless folks are willing to be unwitting or willing tools. MR>> You wrote: "The smart thing to do would be to give the Nazis their MR>> permit and allow them their little march and stay away from them MR>> and ignore them" MR>> I find this surprising from you Gustl. It's precisely how people MR>> responded to Mein Kampf, Hitlers rant at the Hoffbrau Haus and MR>> what finally lead to Kristallnacht and the rise of the Nazi party. MR> Mike, when I went into the military I was chosen to be placed in a MR> field which required a background check for a security clearance which MR> required access to certain material. I nearly didn't get the MR> clearance because a shirt-tail relation in Germany was an MR> SS-Brigadeführer and commanded a division in Hungary. The only reason MR> I got the clearance is because his entire division was wiped out by MR> the Soviets before I was born and both my father and step-father had MR> served in the Army during the war. This was in 1962. Seventeen years MR> after the end of the war. MR> I asked my Oma about this relative and she told me he was a "really MR> nice guy" but she hadn't seen him or had any contact with him since MR> she had come to this country when she was 12. Having a curious nature MR> I began a pretty intensive study of history to see what these folks MR> were all about, why the war happened in the first place and what had MR> happened since. Now I'm not sure how anyone else analyzes their data, MR> but I attempt (and am generally successful) to do so with an open mind MR> and without prejudice one way or the other and draw my conclusions MR> from that analysis while remaining open to new evidence. MR> The United States cannot be compared to post WWI Germany in any way. MR> The conditions here do not correspond to those in Germany at that time MR> and making comparisons based on that data will and does lead to false MR> conclusions. Apples and oranges brother. MR>> I will persist in standing along side my friends and being heard. MR>> I will continue to do what I can for organizers with the prospect MR>> of some day becoming an organizers (if I am needed in that roll). MR> Peace would be better served by holding a peaceful rally away from the MR> location of the Nazi's and drawing as many folks as possible to that MR> rally which emphasizes positive and peaceful action rather than giving MR> attention to the negative vibes coming from those others. MR>> My motivation comes from people like MLK, Gandhi, the Freedom MR>> Riders and Reverend Martin Neimoller (among others) who speak, MR>> even from beyond the grave, of their experience and who stress the MR>> importance of NOT LEAVING THEM ALONE. MR> But of whom are you speaking here? Responsible, restrained, MR> disciplined and peaceful people and organizations which would not be MR> provoked to return violence for violence. No hate speech coming from MR> their mouths. No returning tit for tat. They just kept coming and MR> turning the other cheek until their goals had been peacefully reached. MR> I have a sheet of paper on my cork board in fron of my desk on which I MR> have copied from somewhere (those not liking references to God please MR> stop reading): MR> "What does it do for the human soul? Does it bring God to man and man MR> to God?" MR> "Never hesitate to embrace truth no matter where it appears to come MR> from." MR> "Be positive in your exhortations. Do not emphasize evil by forbidding MR> it." MR> This seems to me to be good advice. For the first proposition folks MR> could replace "God" and "soul" with something which suits their MR> particular system of belief or philosophy (if it is peaceful and MR> positive) and it still works. MR> For the second proposition read the Koran or Das Kapital or Mein Kampf MR> and you will find truth there as well. Pick the flowers out of the MR> manure and leave the manure lay. The same goes for the Old and New MR> Testament of the Christian scriptures. If one can only find flowers MR> and no manure there then one does not comprehend completely what they MR> read. It also probably means that they lack faith and have a need for MR> the concrete assurances of a signed contract which can be upheld by MR> law. Sad. MR> As concerns the third proposition, the carrot is always better than MR> the stick. The stick may bring about the desired results sooner, but MR> it also brings with it resentment and the possibility of the stick MR> changing hands and being used on oneself. MR> Anyhow brother, this is what I meant in my mail. I hope this mail MR> better suits than the last one. Clarity and understanding are MR> important. You may not agree with me, but that is fine with me as MR> well. We need not agree on everything to be friends. Disagreement MR> and debate definitely has its place. If it does nothing else it MR> causes one to examine their own position and gives them the MR> opportunity to adjust themselves to be in accord with what is right MR> and true if they are shown to be lacking or to show them that they are MR> headed in the right direction. We should welcome honest debate and MR> criticism from any direction. It is or can be a very helpful tool. MR> Take care brother. Stay well and happy. MR> Happy Happy, MR> Gustl MR> [snip] -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. ******** We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. ******** The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" ******** Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. ******** Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin ******** The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
